What to avoid

[small]

I'm guessing this gets discussed on other forums, but I'm not on them often and general looking doesn't produce much.

Going back a forth with another forum member who mentioned the 30L by Longines and being maybe one of the best movements around. I know Best is kind of subjective so lets take it in another direction.

What movements should one avoid. I'm not so biased in things and brand loyalty that I can't admit that my "brand" put out lemons or that my Rivals don't have something going for them.

made a Tech 4 engine that ran terrible and sounded like a diesel and the diesel's they were making at about the same time didn't run. I'm a guy in general, BMW has their I-6, Jeep the 4.0 again I-6, even Mopar had the slant-six. Chevy's 5.7 (350) could be argued as the best. All those are good. Yet all I'm sure made dogs like the TechFour at one point or another. Being a car guy I always joke anything under the other brands hood is junk...

My jeweler once said to avoid Omega's made in the late 70's and 80's, he stopped servicing/selling? them in the 80's because he said they were being made cheaply and using too much plastic? While plastic for some parts may be a good thing in the end. VTA said moving to a plastic intermediate date wheel reduced drag , which is an improvement...He also said the 7002 was failed attempt at making a watch with as few of parts possible. I don't know if it is because there is one with less parts or what. Or if the 7002 is to be avoided in general not because they used too few parts. Reading up on some quartz movements jeweled vs. not, there are good arguments made on both sides. Yet if I'm not mistaken Seiko's 7A's may have been their last jeweled? Does Seiko make a jeweled quartz in any fashion?  

Some movements are still being made decades after being introduced. Yet some were very short lived. Whether this is because they weren't very good, or it could be they were just too expensive to produce at the time (Remington's model 34 Bolt Action .22 comes to mind). Manufacturing techniques made it easier to build one vs. another. There are some pretty Iconic movements out there, the IWC 89 is often referred to but is it really any good? In the 80's I heard nothing good about Rolex but their marketing, since a $5 quartz Timex could tell better time then they could...I can't say they ween't wrong. So just seeing a movement made for a short duration might not be an indicator of quality one way or the other. Although longevity might just means its reasonable and cost effective.

So who made what, that should be avoided? Japanese, Swiss, Mechanical, quartz, given time periods maybe? Did Hamilton's made in the U.S. surpass their Swiss manufacturing days? Benrus, Elgin when they tried to keep up with the Quartz-movement, movement, or the Jewel wars. Again IIRC VTA had a video showing Jeweled post on the plates that were easy to damage, not really ideal. 

I'm just curious as I scroll through listing and see some many different movements and makers, yet I see so many with the same movement (AS1686/AS1187/ETA?) Lets keep this confined a bit to wrist watches between the '40's to 90's??? Common manufactures that are still around in one form or another and are priced reasonable. More working men type watches for everyday but include higher end that should also be avoided. Especially higher end. Nothing is worst then finding out your dad bought an Edsel and you may have followed in his foot steps.  

As always, thanks in advance, 
 

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2017 9:46:36 GMT -8 small said:

I'm guessing this gets discussed on other forums, but I'm not on them often and general looking doesn't produce much.

Going back a forth with another forum member who mentioned the 30L by Longines and being maybe one of the best movements around. I know Best is kind of subjective so lets take it in another direction.

What movements should one avoid. I'm not so biased in things and brand loyalty that I can't admit that my "brand" put out lemons or that my Rivals don't have something going for them.

made a Tech 4 engine that ran terrible and sounded like a diesel and the diesel's they were making at about the same time didn't run. I'm a guy in general, BMW has their I-6, Jeep the 4.0 again I-6, even Mopar had the slant-six. Chevy's 5.7 (350) could be argued as the best. All those are good. Yet all I'm sure made dogs like the TechFour at one point or another. Being a car guy I always joke anything under the other brands hood is junk...

My jeweler once said to avoid Omega's made in the late 70's and 80's, he stopped servicing/selling? them in the 80's because he said they were being made cheaply and using too much plastic? While plastic for some parts may be a good thing in the end. VTA said moving to a plastic intermediate date wheel reduced drag , which is an improvement...He also said the 7002 was failed attempt at making a watch with as few of parts possible. I don't know if it is because there is one with less parts or what. Or if the 7002 is to be avoided in general not because they used too few parts. Reading up on some quartz movements jeweled vs. not, there are good arguments made on both sides. Yet if I'm not mistaken Seiko's 7A's may have been their last jeweled? Does Seiko make a jeweled quartz in any fashion?  

Some movements are still being made decades after being introduced. Yet some were very short lived. Whether this is because they weren't very good, or it could be they were just too expensive to produce at the time (Remington's model 34 Bolt Action .22 comes to mind). Manufacturing techniques made it easier to build one vs. another. There are some pretty Iconic movements out there, the IWC 89 is often referred to but is it really any good? In the 80's I heard nothing good about Rolex but their marketing, since a $5 quartz Timex could tell better time then they could...I can't say they ween't wrong. So just seeing a movement made for a short duration might not be an indicator of quality one way or the other. Although longevity might just means its reasonable and cost effective.

So who made what, that should be avoided? Japanese, Swiss, Mechanical, quartz, given time periods maybe? Did Hamilton's made in the U.S. surpass their Swiss manufacturing days? Benrus, Elgin when they tried to keep up with the Quartz-movement, movement, or the Jewel wars. Again IIRC VTA had a video showing Jeweled post on the plates that were easy to damage, not really ideal. 

I'm just curious as I scroll through listing and see some many different movements and makers, yet I see so many with the same movement (AS1686/AS1187/ETA?) Lets keep this confined a bit to wrist watches between the '40's to 90's??? Common manufactures that are still around in one form or another and are priced reasonable. More working men type watches for everyday but include higher end that should also be avoided. Especially higher end. Nothing is worst then finding out your dad bought an Edsel and you may have followed in his foot steps.  

As always, thanks in advance, 
 

I don't believe this is what Adrian said"...the 7002 was failed attempt at making a watch with as few of parts possible." He was referring to the misbegotten myths that were roaming around the internet and the watch forums.
There is/was nothing wrong with the 7002 movement. It's basically the same movement that became the 7s26 with fewer parts. The 7s26 has almost the same number of parts that the 7s26 does if you remove the day wheel and it's actuating mechanisms.

As far as Seiko goes, the current movements to stay away from are the C versions of the 7s26, 4r36 and 6r15. Spencer's video does an excellent job of describing why this is so.
Seiko had several dud quartz modules; notably the 7123.
The 4205 auto movement was made to reduce the parts count by making a two plate model that has indirectly driven seconds hand...one of the crappier mechanicals that Seiko has made.

There are so many Swiss mechanical movements that should be avoided that it would take a telephone book sized document to list them all

[small]

I know Adrian was just "mentioning the rumor/ urban legend" in a different post, and that it was just that, a myth nothing more. I get he was trying to kill it.  Yet I wonder, it had to have gotten a start somewhere, although until he mentioned it, I'd no clue...I just keep mentioning it now because I don't want it to die 

With the Swiss, you say too many to list... was it an era, similar to the "Malaise Era" with U.S. auto manufacturers? Was it across the board with the Swiss? Particular movements; 15 jewel, 17, jewel, 21...39! Manual wind, Auto's. Heck a quick peek there are 30 1187 movements list as AS1187 and 28 are different  manufacturers? VAT said there could be as many as 600-700 Watches using the 1686! At one point if it had SWISS at the bottom you were almost assured a certain level of quality or that was the perception and as you state not the reality... 

I thought the Seiko 4205 was a movement made to fit women's watches and that's why the double plate...Again I could have just misread too. Knowing that allows me, and other notice to steer clear when we see these... maybe going for one of the 2XXX, for our wives\girlfriends\daughters

When you say Spencer's Video are you meaning Spencer Klein? I'll look for it on youtube??

They don't still print telephone books do they?   

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2017 12:22:55 GMT -8 small said:

I know Adrian was just "mentioning the rumor/ urban legend" in a different post, and that it was just that, a myth nothing more. I get he was trying to kill it.  Yet I wonder, it had to have gotten a start somewhere, although until he mentioned it, I'd no clue...I just keep mentioning it now because I don't want it to die 

With the Swiss, you say too many to list... was it an era, similar to the "Malaise Era" with U.S. auto manufacturers? Was it across the board with the Swiss? Particular movements; 15 jewel, 17, jewel, 21...39! Manual wind, Auto's. Heck a quick peek there are 30 1187 movements list as AS1187 and 28 are different  manufacturers? VAT said there could be as many as 600-700 Watches using the 1686! At one point if it had SWISS at the bottom you were almost assured a certain level of quality or that was the perception and as you state not the reality... 

I thought the Seiko 4205 was a movement made to fit women's watches and that's why the double plate...Again I could have just misread too. Knowing that allows me, and other notice to steer clear when we see these... maybe going for one of the 2XXX, for our wives\girlfriends\daughters

When you say Spencer's Video are you meaning Spencer Klein? I'll look for it on youtube??

They don't still print telephone books do they?   

Yes, the Swiss did experience a malaise era. It was mostly after WWII when they began dumping $hit watches on the US to try and oust the major US makers; at which they were pretty successful. Most of the stuff they sent/sold in North America was bottom end and crappy.
Part of that was due to the Swiss watch industry being in disarray with every Tom, Dick and Ernst opening up shops like the Chinese did in the early 2000s. Prior to this there was little to no regulation and the various makers and assemblers could put whatever they wanted on the watches. Because of this, the big houses like ETA and the Rolex people worked with the government to formulate some laws and regulations.
Before the Japanese and Chinese even got into the counterfeit watch business, the Swiss were masters at ripping off their own countrymen.

After the laws were put in place, most of the fakes stopped and labeling laws took care of many of the quality issues (a gap the Chinese have since filled).

Seiko's introduction of the Astron and subsequent quartz watches all but destroyed the once huge Swiss watch industry. ETA and a couple of the bigger players bought up or usurped most of the movement makers you find listed in Ranfft. As they did so, they closed most of the factories and sold off or destroyed the old tooling. This reduced the Swiss offerings to only a few models that would become the basis for the Swiss luxury watch industry.

There was no real improvement in quality but millions were spent marketing the idea that Swiss is best. They were so successful in this that when you say Swiss to the uninitiated, they automatically assume the highest quality in the world. While this may be true for certain watches and calibres, it certainly isn't true of most of them. Zodiac watches for instance import and install Chinese movements in some of their top of the line watches. In order to legally print Swiss Made or Swiss Movement on the dial, they have to provide up to 50% of the value as being Swiss. They circumvent this by either having the CEO receive the shipments on the dock and wave his expensive salaried hands over the crates or they they have the movements pass through the hands of their highest paid watchmakers. In the end it's still a Chinese designed and manufactured movement

The Swiss still produce some pretty awful garbage Think Tissot T-Touch

The Seiko 4205 is a mid sized movement found in ladies watches and men's watches. It is an economy movement and was likely never viewed as serviceable but rather as disposable.

[ohsown]

Jan 26, 2017 10:29:07 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

As far as Seiko goes, the current movements to stay away from are the C versions of the 7s26, 4r36 and 6r15. Spencer's video does an excellent job of describing why this is so.

Jan 26, 2017 9:46:36 GMT -8 small said:

So Peter does this mean all 4r36 & 6r15 or do they also have  a,b & c versions? I guess I'm wondering how would you know if your turdle has the bad balance or "C" type short of opening it up?

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2017 17:02:53 GMT -8 ohsown said:

Jan 26, 2017 10:29:07 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

As far as Seiko goes, the current movements to stay away from are the C versions of the 7s26, 4r36 and 6r15. Spencer's video does an excellent job of describing why this is so.

So Peter does this mean all 4r36 & 6r15 or do they also have  a,b & c versions? I guess I'm wondering how would you know if your turdle has the bad balance or "C" type short of opening it up?

Jim,
All of them ad A, B and C versions. The 6r15A was a bit of a disaster because Seiko tried using 7s26A day/date wheels and mechanisms that would bind and cause issues with changeover. One more revision fixed it then another revison broke it again.
Same goes for the 4r36 which really started as the 4r15(an excellent movement with no issues but short lived and only found in a couple of models). Once the day function was added, the balance and main springs were reduced to the lowest common denominator and everything was rationalized for cost saving in inventory...the whole works suffered and turned into the problematic children we see in the new watches
I'm hoping that Seiko(the quality company that it is) will soon march out the revised revision D and fix all this $hit.

[ohsown]

I watched Spencer's video and he referred to a new 4r36 as having the problem with the balance but never mentioned a or b variants. So it is all 4r36's ? Mine is from Aug/16, just noticed tonight while doing this it is a 60 year birth date for me. I don't really want to crack the case open to see if it is marked a,b or c if they are all problematic. Only received a few days before Christmas and it's been about +5/day.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2017 18:47:03 GMT -8 ohsown said:

I watched Spencer's video and he referred to a new 4r36 as having the problem with the balance but never mentioned a or b variants. So it is all 4r36's ? Mine is from Aug/16, just noticed tonight while doing this it is a 60 year birth date for me. I don't really want to crack the case open to see if it is marked a,b or c if they are all problematic. Only received a few days before Christmas and it's been about +5/day.

Jim, the problems only arose when Seiko decided to rationalize all common parts between the calibres; which was the C version. Prior to that, the B versions had the looping hairspring issue and the first 6r15s had the date wheel problems which also involved the hand winding bits.
Other than the potential looping of a hairspring, I think all the Bs are probably ok. Just stay away from the C versions until Seiko fixes the problem(if they ever do...could be like the misaligned chapter ring :bs: ).

[Adrian-VTA]

I'd agree with Pete the Swiss lost the plot after the war for a while, but not so much in the quality of the movements, just in how many of the darn things they made.

I have the caliber books from 1949 until the 2000's and the amount of calibers made is utterly dizzying.

It got particularly bad through the 60's and 70's. If you look through the books at the variations, you think "WHY did that make that? wtf?"

Just absolutely bizarre movement complications etc. To make it more convoluted, you could order these calibers any way you wanted, with perlage, adjusted, with cotes de geneve, anything. Weird balances extra jewels, you name it.

Where they really went sideways was bringing in the "Roskopf" or pin lever movements. These things are utter shit. Unserviceable garbage. They were so bad the communists made extensive use of the tech in the DDR.

"Roskopf watches were sometimes pejoratively called "montre du prolétaire" (proletarian's watches). In fact, they made a significant contribution to the development of the watch as a luxury object to a commodity for large segments of the population." - c/o watch-wiki.net

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-pallet_escapement

You have to remember with the Swiss stuff, besides the big brands with in-house movements, everyone else used "ebauches". There were zillions of companies making only movements, and they would sell the things by the truck load to companies to dump into watches. With quartz taking the bottom and mid end out of the market, most of them sold out to ESA (although the rot really set in during the 50's and 60's), who then used the names of the companies as a sub brand of ESA. The names filled a particular market segment. e.g. ETA was the top offering, AS was the middle range and FHF/ST etc were the bottom end.

ESA (Ebauches SA) was a forerunner to the SWATCH group.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_SA

www.watch-wiki.net/index.php?title=Ebauches_SA

An interesting point to note is that the majority of manufacturing involved with ETA movements now comes from places outside of Switzerland.

Back to SEIKO.

The 7002 is a great movement and some idiots on another forum spread a rumour it was a cost cutting exercise which is rubbish.

I disagree with Pete on the 4205. It is totally serviceable and I service them regularly getting great results. I've heard another watch tech I know say they are garbage, but he can never give me a reason why. I suspect because they are so small they are tricky to work on and that's the main reason.

I get great amplitudes off them and have nothing to complain about.

As for the use of plastic in movements, there's no real problem when used sensibly. In fact, plastic is great because for the most part it doesn't require lubrication. This is a huge point of failure in watches.

7A's are good movements but need more service than the 7T due to having more jewels and metal in them. Another benefit with many 7T movements is that because they are so economised, it's often cheaper to replace the movement rather than fix it. Does that make it a bad movement? Depends how you look at it. I say that makes it a great movement because anything that saves time and money, is a win. So the customer gets a repair bill for a new movement and the time to swap it. Bonus.

As for your friend that doesn't touch late 70's Omega...fair enough. I hear this sort of thing all the time and put it down to snobbery or laziness because they are not like a crappy engine (we had them here as well...oh gawd they were terrible). In fact, often I'll speak to a watchmaker and if they see one piece of plastic in a movement, they will just label it garbage...for no real reason. Just for snobbery.

Back to the Japanese again, the 7123 is often maligned as a garbage movements. Nobody ever says why. Advice without reason is pointless. This movement has a wear issue on the cannon pinion and of course, the replacement part is no longer available. Besides that they are OK. Of course without the part you can't fix it, which takes it out of circulation.

It's pretty late here and likely starting to type gibberish, but my main point is you need to look through the bullshit, because there's plenty of it around and find the facts on these things if you really want to understand it.

Jan 26, 2017 12:59:19 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

Jan 26, 2017 12:22:55 GMT -8 small said:

I know Adrian was just "mentioning the rumor/ urban legend" in a different post, and that it was just that, a myth nothing more. I get he was trying to kill it.  Yet I wonder, it had to have gotten a start somewhere, although until he mentioned it, I'd no clue...I just keep mentioning it now because I don't want it to die 

With the Swiss, you say too many to list... was it an era, similar to the "Malaise Era" with U.S. auto manufacturers? Was it across the board with the Swiss? Particular movements; 15 jewel, 17, jewel, 21...39! Manual wind, Auto's. Heck a quick peek there are 30 1187 movements list as AS1187 and 28 are different  manufacturers? VAT said there could be as many as 600-700 Watches using the 1686! At one point if it had SWISS at the bottom you were almost assured a certain level of quality or that was the perception and as you state not the reality... 

I thought the Seiko 4205 was a movement made to fit women's watches and that's why the double plate...Again I could have just misread too. Knowing that allows me, and other notice to steer clear when we see these... maybe going for one of the 2XXX, for our wives\girlfriends\daughters

When you say Spencer's Video are you meaning Spencer Klein? I'll look for it on youtube??

They don't still print telephone books do they?   

Yes, the Swiss did experience a malaise era. It was mostly after WWII when they began dumping $hit watches on the US to try and oust the major US makers; at which they were pretty successful. Most of the stuff they sent/sold in North America was bottom end and crappy.
Part of that was due to the Swiss watch industry being in disarray with every Tom, Dick and Ernst opening up shops like the Chinese did in the early 2000s. Prior to this there was little to no regulation and the various makers and assemblers could put whatever they wanted on the watches. Because of this, the big houses like ETA and the Rolex people worked with the government to formulate some laws and regulations.
Before the Japanese and Chinese even got into the counterfeit watch business, the Swiss were masters at ripping off their own countrymen.

After the laws were put in place, most of the fakes stopped and labeling laws took care of many of the quality issues (a gap the Chinese have since filled).

Seiko's introduction of the Astron and subsequent quartz watches all but destroyed the once huge Swiss watch industry. ETA and a couple of the bigger players bought up or usurped most of the movement makers you find listed in Ranfft. As they did so, they closed most of the factories and sold off or destroyed the old tooling. This reduced the Swiss offerings to only a few models that would become the basis for the Swiss luxury watch industry.

There was no real improvement in quality but millions were spent marketing the idea that Swiss is best. They were so successful in this that when you say Swiss to the uninitiated, they automatically assume the highest quality in the world. While this may be true for certain watches and calibres, it certainly isn't true of most of them. Zodiac watches for instance import and install Chinese movements in some of their top of the line watches. In order to legally print Swiss Made or Swiss Movement on the dial, they have to provide up to 50% of the value as being Swiss. They circumvent this by either having the CEO receive the shipments on the dock and wave his expensive salaried hands over the crates or they they have the movements pass through the hands of their highest paid watchmakers. In the end it's still a Chinese designed and manufactured movement

The Swiss still produce some pretty awful garbage Think Tissot T-Touch

The Seiko 4205 is a mid sized movement found in ladies watches and men's watches. It is an economy movement and was likely never viewed as serviceable but rather as disposable.

[215droc]

don't forget the ford 300 inline 6 in that list of most bullet-proof long lasting engines.
You called me out on the Longines we discussed in our current projects.  The 30 series calibers are regarded as one of their best (mechanical winds) of a certain era, and at that time, this maker was the equal or more of omega and similar.   You couldn't compare it to an auto wind at all.  They are beautiful movements, with gold screw-in chatons and jewels, beveled bridge plates, and polishing/finishing in places you'd never see unless disassembled.  You can pick up these type of movements for a song, because so many cases were scrapped.  Other than a lack of a movable stud carrier, it was a very simple overhaul, compared to a seiko day date auto.  Now I have to find a way to re-case the Flagship. I'd like to find an early King Seiko manual wind to work on and compare.

[mikeyt]

Jan 26, 2017 19:02:05 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

Jan 26, 2017 18:47:03 GMT -8 ohsown said:

I watched Spencer's video and he referred to a new 4r36 as having the problem with the balance but never mentioned a or b variants. So it is all 4r36's ? Mine is from Aug/16, just noticed tonight while doing this it is a 60 year birth date for me. I don't really want to crack the case open to see if it is marked a,b or c if they are all problematic. Only received a few days before Christmas and it's been about +5/day.

Jim, the problems only arose when Seiko decided to rationalize all common parts between the calibres; which was the C version. Prior to that, the B versions had the looping hairspring issue and the first 6r15s had the date wheel problems which also involved the hand winding bits.
Other than the potential looping of a hairspring, I think all the Bs are probably ok. Just stay away from the C versions until Seiko fixes the problem(if they ever do...could be like the misaligned chapter ring :bs: ).

Peter, you may recall that I have one of the Manchester Watch Works 62MAS homages coming.  It will have the 6R15 inside, presumably the C version.  Should I peddle it sight unseen?  What percentage of these has a problem, if you were going to make a guess?  For those who haven't seen it, here is the prototype.  


 

[small]

Jan 28, 2017 6:29:46 GMT -8 215droc said:

don't forget the ford 300 inline 6 in that list of most bullet-proof long lasting engines.
You called me out on the Longines we discussed in our current projects.  The 30 series calibers are regarded as one of their best (mechanical winds) of a certain era, and at that time, this maker was the equal or more of omega and similar.   You couldn't compare it to an auto wind at all.  They are beautiful movements, with gold screw-in chatons and jewels, beveled bridge plates, and polishing/finishing in places you'd never see unless disassembled.  You can pick up these type of movements for a song, because so many cases were scrapped.  Other than a lack of a movable stud carrier, it was a very simple overhaul, compared to a seiko day date auto.  Now I have to find a way to re-case the Flagship. I'd like to find an early King Seiko manual wind to work on and compare.

Oh I don't do Fords their just nasty....I just said back and forth, no calling out, our conversation it just got me thinking is all. Best is subjective and your points stand, and can be agreed with. I just thought I'd go the other way to see what movements should be avoided and why. VTA's mention of parts failure on the 7123 and then limited availability is an excellent point. Kind of what I'm after in this thread. I'd have kept my '72 Swinger but at the time, parts were scarce, now with the internet I kick myself...I still have my timing light and dwell meter in the event I ever go back to a points ignition automobile...Along with two oil can spots just in case those come back too!  

[215droc]

right, didn't mean you called me out in bad way.  I don't know enough to defend or knock any caliber other than what I have read.

You'll see my 64 chrysler 300 convertible in my picture there, - I like mopar and fords (had an f150 with the I300).  

I had a plymouth valient slant 6, same as your swinger.  Had a blasting stereo in there which allowed me to drive 200 miles after putting it in 2nd gear rather than drive, and never notice until the smoke was coming out behind me in central NJ.  I stopped and got towed home. started right up the next day.

[Deleted]

Jan 28, 2017 6:58:51 GMT -8 mikeyt said:

Jan 26, 2017 19:02:05 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

Jim, the problems only arose when Seiko decided to rationalize all common parts between the calibres; which was the C version. Prior to that, the B versions had the looping hairspring issue and the first 6r15s had the date wheel problems which also involved the hand winding bits.
Other than the potential looping of a hairspring, I think all the Bs are probably ok. Just stay away from the C versions until Seiko fixes the problem(if they ever do...could be like the misaligned chapter ring :bs: ).

Peter, you may recall that I have one of the Manchester Watch Works 62MAS homages coming.  It will have the 6R15 inside, presumably the C version.  Should I peddle it sight unseen?  What percentage of these has a problem, if you were going to make a guess?  For those who haven't seen it, here is the prototype.  


 

I don't have any real idea of the percentages but since we only hear complaints on the forums, the numbers must be high over all.
Not all of them end up problematic so you might get a good one. If you like the watch, you could always try sourcing an earlier version of the movement and swap it in. Or if problems arise; get in the line up forming on Spencer's queue for the A spring upgrade

[Deleted]

Adrian, my comments on the 4205 have largely to do with the size and working on it. Setting the seconds hand so it doesn't jump all over the place is also a big hassle.

The 7123 among other issues had the absolutely worst coil design Seiko has ever put out. The wires from the coil are routed over the top of the coil plastic holder at the end and this is where most 'battery changers' naturally grips the watch. The wires are so exposed that they get broken almost from looking at them.
I once bought a lot of 6 7123 watches from Ramon hoping for at least one good coil...no such luck and half of them had the problem you mentioned. I stand by what I and many others have said about this dog.

[tritto]

I reckon MMW will stand by their product mikeyt, so you shouldn't have a problem (at least not if something goes wrong in the first year). Although MMW charged a premium for the built to order NE15 (6R15), I found them listed on one watch supply website for $45US so it would be cheaper to swap movements than get it fixed if you did have a problem down the track.

[Adrian-VTA]

Thanks.

I think it's really important to look at the WHY's of things rather than sit around in an echo chamber and nodding heads.

We had an engine here during the late 70's early 80's called the "StarFire 4". Which they put in our "Commodore" sedans. It was a -HOLDEN product.

Basically they chopped two cylinders off their legacy inline 6 (already 20 years or so old at this point) and changed very little else about the engine. No overhead cams or anything. Just a total piece of crap. This is when the Japanese were working on high tech fast 4 engines.

It was so bad, despite having two less cylinders, it often used MORE fuel than the V6 because it was always chugging and the amount of engine power was breathtakingly low. It got the well-deserved name "MisFire 4".

From the wiki article -

"Peak power output for the Starfire was 58 kilowatts (78 hp), with a 17.5 second acceleration time from 0–100 kilometres (0–62 mi) in the VC Commodore.[5] This variant's performance meant the need to push the engine hard leading to fuel consumption similar to the straight-sixes. Due to this, it was often nicknamed as Misfire or Backfire. This engine was replaced in the Australian market by the Camira's OHC Camtech unit, however it continued until 1986 in New Zealand, where it was used to power 4-cylinder versions of the VK Commodore."

I had a "Black" engine in my Commodore which was a good engine, but ultimately was labelled shit because the spark was supplied by a computerised spark timing system which was prone to dying when in the middle of the highway or in the bush. The upgrade is to get an electronic distributor to replace the system from the previous model.

Back to watches.

I haven't seen the sort of issues Spencer is seeing with the 7S26C movements. I know the C variation has been revised several times as the part number has changed so I'm not sure what to make of that.

I've had 2 B variation movements with hung up hairsprings. But no C so far.

Jan 28, 2017 7:16:53 GMT -8 small said:

Jan 28, 2017 6:29:46 GMT -8 215droc said:

don't forget the ford 300 inline 6 in that list of most bullet-proof long lasting engines.
You called me out on the Longines we discussed in our current projects.  The 30 series calibers are regarded as one of their best (mechanical winds) of a certain era, and at that time, this maker was the equal or more of omega and similar.   You couldn't compare it to an auto wind at all.  They are beautiful movements, with gold screw-in chatons and jewels, beveled bridge plates, and polishing/finishing in places you'd never see unless disassembled.  You can pick up these type of movements for a song, because so many cases were scrapped.  Other than a lack of a movable stud carrier, it was a very simple overhaul, compared to a seiko day date auto.  Now I have to find a way to re-case the Flagship. I'd like to find an early King Seiko manual wind to work on and compare.

Oh I don't do Fords their just nasty....I just said back and forth, no calling out, our conversation it just got me thinking is all. Best is subjective and your points stand, and can be agreed with. I just thought I'd go the other way to see what movements should be avoided and why. VTA's mention of parts failure on the 7123 and then limited availability is an excellent point. Kind of what I'm after in this thread. I'd have kept my '72 Swinger but at the time, parts were scarce, now with the internet I kick myself...I still have my timing light and dwell meter in the event I ever go back to a points ignition automobile...Along with two oil can spots just in case those come back too!  

[Deleted]

Jan 28, 2017 18:52:03 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

Thanks.

I think it's really important to look at the WHY's of things rather than sit around in an echo chamber and nodding heads.

We had an engine here during the late 70's early 80's called the "StarFire 4". Which they put in our "Commodore" sedans. It was a -HOLDEN product.

Basically they chopped two cylinders off their legacy inline 6 (already 20 years or so old at this point) and changed very little else about the engine. No overhead cams or anything. Just a total piece of crap. This is when the Japanese were working on high tech fast 4 engines.

It was so bad, despite having two less cylinders, it often used MORE fuel than the V6 because it was always chugging and the amount of engine power was breathtakingly low. It got the well-deserved name "MisFire 4".

From the wiki article -

"Peak power output for the Starfire was 58 kilowatts (78 hp), with a 17.5 second acceleration time from 0–100 kilometres (0–62 mi) in the VC Commodore.[5] This variant's performance meant the need to push the engine hard leading to fuel consumption similar to the straight-sixes. Due to this, it was often nicknamed as Misfire or Backfire. This engine was replaced in the Australian market by the Camira's OHC Camtech unit, however it continued until 1986 in New Zealand, where it was used to power 4-cylinder versions of the VK Commodore."

I had a "Black" engine in my Commodore which was a good engine, but ultimately was labelled shit because the spark was supplied by a computerised spark timing system which was prone to dying when in the middle of the highway or in the bush. The upgrade is to get an electronic distributor to replace the system from the previous model.

Back to watches.

I haven't seen the sort of issues Spencer is seeing with the 7S26C movements. I know the C variation has been revised several times as the part number has changed so I'm not sure what to make of that.

I've had 2 B variation movements with hung up hairsprings. But no C so far.

Jan 28, 2017 7:16:53 GMT -8 small said:

Oh I don't do Fords their just nasty....I just said back and forth, no calling out, our conversation it just got me thinking is all. Best is subjective and your points stand, and can be agreed with. I just thought I'd go the other way to see what movements should be avoided and why. VTA's mention of parts failure on the 7123 and then limited availability is an excellent point. Kind of what I'm after in this thread. I'd have kept my '72 Swinger but at the time, parts were scarce, now with the internet I kick myself...I still have my timing light and dwell meter in the event I ever go back to a points ignition automobile...Along with two oil can spots just in case those come back too!  

Adrian,
From pics I've seen and testimonials, the C regulator pins have been redesigned and shortened so that the looping/hanging no longer happens.
If Seiko continues to revise the C then they know what the problem is and will eventually sort it out...much to the hit that Spencer's business will receive.
Changing near perfection is always a risky business but I'm sure Seiko is big enough to eventually take care of the issues. After all there is the matter of 'face' involved and that ways pretty heavily on the Japanese ethic

[HiBeat]

Jan 28, 2017 7:27:57 GMT -8 215droc said:

right, didn't mean you called me out in bad way.  I don't know enough to defend or knock any caliber other than what I have read.

You'll see my 64 chrysler 300 convertible in my picture there, - I like mopar and fords (had an f150 with the I300).  

I had a plymouth valient slant 6, same as your swinger.  Had a blasting stereo in there which allowed me to drive 200 miles after putting it in 2nd gear rather than drive, and never notice until the smoke was coming out behind me in central NJ.  I stopped and got towed home. started right up the next day.

My grandfather had a '64 Chrysler New Yorker with the push-button trans selector.    What a nice ride that car was.  

[mikeyt]

Jan 28, 2017 7:27:57 GMT -8 215droc said:

right, didn't mean you called me out in bad way.  I don't know enough to defend or knock any caliber other than what I have read.

You'll see my 64 chrysler 300 convertible in my picture there, - I like mopar and fords (had an f150 with the I300).  

I had a plymouth valient slant 6, same as your swinger.  Had a blasting stereo in there which allowed me to drive 200 miles after putting it in 2nd gear rather than drive, and never notice until the smoke was coming out behind me in central NJ.  I stopped and got towed home. started right up the next day.

That "leaning tower of power" was a heckuva motor, at least the early ones.  I had a 61 Belvedere and a 64 D100 that both slant sixes.  Couldn't kill 'em.