Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Aug 7, 2017 17:31:48 GMT -8
I have this here right now and the customer decided not to go ahead with it. I've taken the dial/hands out, there were all fake and we've seen them before. The movement was real but really needed a service. It was the only real part in this watch. I'm assuming this is the sort of case sold in the "Bullhead Refurb Kits"? Looks good right? Oops...side is a bit wonky. Looks pretty good here Here's the movement ring. No spring? No worries. Nylon ring to the rescue. Caseback might be real? I dunno. Inside. It's already so dirty it looks 40 years old. WTF? The pushers are some crap thing that is retained by a circlip. Total shit. Good luck getting that water resistant or finding new seals in the future. Totally off-spec. Bezel off. Not sure if the bezel is off spec or not. I see no rubber crystal gasket. I wonder why? Oh here we go. Crystal is a refinished SternKreuz part and is retained by a nylon gasket. It was fairly loose, you could push it out with your finger. Not sure if the dial ring is to spec. The pusher tube is off spec and designed for those crap pushers. No luck on putting in stock pushers. You're screwed. You're stuck with those crap things.
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
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Post by cobrajet25 on Aug 7, 2017 20:31:52 GMT -8
All fake Bullheads have that same serial number..."6N3147".
The bezel insert looks like one of the really early reproductions. The yellow lettering was so often faded out on the originals that the fakers didn't know the yellow lettering was even there to begin with. So all the lettering is silver.
That watch is a train wreck, and I am sure the owner paid a pretty penny for it. Bullheads go for bucks...black bullheads go for SERIOUS bucks.
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Mr.Jones
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Hamburg, Germany
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Post by Mr.Jones on Aug 8, 2017 0:35:47 GMT -8
This is just sad
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
Posts: 408
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Post by west.au on Aug 8, 2017 3:41:29 GMT -8
The problem is made worse when they use a different case-back/serial number on the watch, I also bought a black one that had its original box, plastic sleeve and paperwork of the Buyee site ... supposedly NOS ... I noted at the time that the photos seemed a bit artistic in showing the watch. Anyway the watch duly arrived ... and I got very suspicious (I have 2 brown ones) anyway i took it to my watchmaker for a critical review, we only got as far as taking the case-back off before he called fake ... the thread was agricultural at best. The movement whilst original showed wear and corrosion The annoying part was that they had used an NOS box, sleeve and paperwork (one of my brown ones is an NOS 5sports speedtimer w. box, sleeve & paperwork so i had a comparison) ... and that all had to be returned when i disputed the transaction through Paypal. Buyee argued that as an agent that they were not liable for the fake, and that they had listed it in good faith and that my only recourse was with the seller. However i pointed out that my money went to a Buyee account, Buyee took their commission and then paid the seller ... who i couldn't contact as my transaction was with buyee, technically they sold the watch, no matter how much they said otherwise. I pointed that as Buyee was part of the transaction chain that their recourse was with the seller, and that they (Buyee) should contact them in order to get the money back, Buyee refused to comment on my argument & again stated that as agent that they were not liable ... However Paypal agreed with my argument and refunded the money. It took just over 3 months and many emails to get the AU$2200 returned to my account Shortly after i got "banned" by Buyee, my password doesn't work and they will not respond to my emails. If there is a moral i suppose it's don't gamble more that you can afford to lose ... and if you a paying out a chunk use Paypal as guarantor
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Post by bombora on Aug 8, 2017 4:11:08 GMT -8
I am glad you got Paypal to refund the money. Good to know as i use Jauce as my go-between and they make the same sort of claims regarding refunds.
There seem to be a lot more fake chonos on Yahoo Jp lately and it will probably only continue to get worse.
Did you send the watches back to Buyee?
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
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Post by west.au on Aug 8, 2017 4:25:38 GMT -8
I am glad you got Paypal to refund the money. Good to know as i use Jauce as my go-between and they make the same sort of claims regarding refunds. There seem to be a lot more fake chonos on Yahoo Jp lately and it will probably only continue to get worse. Did you send the watches back to Buyee? yeah ... the watch went back to buyee via registered post
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Post by pollythecat on Aug 8, 2017 23:25:39 GMT -8
Thank's for this post Adrian. I have a black bully that has a worn case and was considering buying one of these supposedly NOS cases for an upgrade (as the rest of the watch is mint). I could not make out the fine detail in the sellers listing photographs and now I know why. It's to hide the discrepancies and explains why the case does not come bare but includes pushers, crystal and bezel. So I have not wasted £150, cheers mate
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Aug 9, 2017 0:49:16 GMT -8
It's stupid. Someone went to a lot of effort to make these things and if they just made them to oem spec, even with the slightly wonky sides, I'd say they were a good buy. Thank's for this post Adrian. I have a black bully that has a worn case and was considering buying one of these supposedly NOS cases for an upgrade (as the rest of the watch is mint). I could not make out the fine detail in the sellers listing photographs and now I know why. It's to hide the discrepancies and explains why the case does not come bare but includes pushers, crystal and bezel. So I have not wasted £150, cheers mate
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Mr.Jones
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Hamburg, Germany
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Post by Mr.Jones on Aug 9, 2017 0:55:49 GMT -8
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Aug 9, 2017 1:08:27 GMT -8
Probably can replace the tubes, but then you have the crystal recess...not sure if that is to spec. The finish on those cases looks slightly different. I could be wrong, but they don't look the same. I know from a decade of doing china sourcing for a day job though, you can tell the factory to make a higher/lower grade of the same product and they will do exactly that.
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eeki
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Post by eeki on Aug 9, 2017 4:30:22 GMT -8
Very interesting, thank you Adrian! I had also thought that these might make good replacement cases for over-polished/dinged examples but I guess not..
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
Posts: 408
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Post by west.au on Aug 12, 2017 8:15:46 GMT -8
Not meaning to drag up an older thread .... but anyway, I was searching under chronograph case for a suitable venus donor
And these three popped up when i changed search terms, all BINS (so i think i can link them?)
- the first two apparently "Genuine Japan Made" @ US$169 ... I notice that the case-back is not part of the deal (hhhmmm!)
1) 272788776281 (I see that 1 out of 3 has been sold - the transaction was for the 7th of August, the purchaser might be in for a surprise)
2) 272773080975
- and a complete "kit" @us$300
3) 292190653909
I notice that the pushers in all three listings are similar to the watch at the top of the post
Ouch ...
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Aug 12, 2017 16:20:22 GMT -8
If they got the pusher tubes right, I'd say they would be worth a look, even with the wonky sides. You can get a Bergeon tool that removes pusher tubes safety and you might be able to fit some on-spec parts. You'd need to soften or eat the locking gunk around the tube, then it should be pretty clinical. I don't have one of the tools to try it. When I do get one I'll give it a go. Thank's for this post Adrian. I have a black bully that has a worn case and was considering buying one of these supposedly NOS cases for an upgrade (as the rest of the watch is mint). I could not make out the fine detail in the sellers listing photographs and now I know why. It's to hide the discrepancies and explains why the case does not come bare but includes pushers, crystal and bezel. So I have not wasted £150, cheers mate
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Aug 12, 2017 16:21:47 GMT -8
It's not so old. Do we think as a community we should start reporting these as counterfeits? Ebay goes apeshit over counterfeit stuff. Not meaning to drag up an older thread .... but anyway, I was searching under chronograph case for a suitable venus donor And these three popped up when i changed search terms, all BINS (so i think i can link them?) - the first two apparently "Genuine Japan Made" @ US$169 ... I notice that the case-back is not part of the deal (hhhmmm!) 1) 272788776281 (I see that 1 out of 3 has been sold - the transaction was for the 7th of August, the purchaser might be in for a surprise) 2) 272773080975 - and a complete "kit" @us$300 3) 292190653909 I notice that the pushers in all three listings are similar to the watch at the top of the post Ouch ...
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Post by rob3rto on Aug 12, 2017 23:50:51 GMT -8
It's not so old. Do we think as a community we should start reporting these as counterfeits? Ebay goes apeshit over counterfeit stuff. Not meaning to drag up an older thread .... but anyway, I was searching under chronograph case for a suitable venus donor And these three popped up when i changed search terms, all BINS (so i think i can link them?) - the first two apparently "Genuine Japan Made" @ US$169 ... I notice that the case-back is not part of the deal (hhhmmm!) 1) 272788776281 (I see that 1 out of 3 has been sold - the transaction was for the 7th of August, the purchaser might be in for a surprise) 2) 272773080975 - and a complete "kit" @us$300 3) 292190653909 I notice that the pushers in all three listings are similar to the watch at the top of the post Ouch ... I've always hit the report button when I come across any fakes, Inc the Mido "NOS" sample I bought and had to return.
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
Posts: 408
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Post by west.au on Aug 13, 2017 1:48:33 GMT -8
It's not so old. Do we think as a community we should start reporting these as counterfeits? Ebay goes apeshit over counterfeit stuff. I've always hit the report button when I come across any fakes, Inc the Mido "NOS" sample I bought and had to return. I used to always report these and other fakes i stumbled across (even had a spreadsheet to keep track of it all), i never got any feedback from ebay and never saw any evidence that these dealers were shut down. I do think that ebay contacted some of them as I saw on a number of re-lists that the case-back was no longer shown with legible detail (in one case they had used M/S paint to 'blur' the fake serial number) My p.o.v is that it is a case of ' caveat emptor' on ebay, and always use Paypal - and be thorough & polite in your correspondence. (photographs are great when communicating with customer service, esp. if item is described as genuine or NOS) And always put it back on the purchaser for a solution (my stock line is ' how do you wish to proceed in resolving this issue'), that way if they get upset & argumentative you can easily escalate it and in general get a resolution in your favour (I have had a 100% refund history with paypal, its just painful and slow is all) The other point in all of this - is that these dealers are like hydra's, and china/india will make anything if there is a profit to be made
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Post by doomguy10011 on Aug 13, 2017 6:32:54 GMT -8
These fake Bullheads are so sad. There's a sizable market dedicated to making just these! I suppose the casebacks could be from other Seikos, with the original text completely buffed out and then stamped with the fake text.
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jringo8769
WIS
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Posts: 1,570
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Post by jringo8769 on Aug 14, 2017 0:08:44 GMT -8
If they got the pusher tubes right, I'd say they would be worth a look, even with the wonky sides. You can get a Bergeon tool that removes pusher tubes safety and you might be able to fit some on-spec parts. You'd need to soften or eat the locking gunk around the tube, then it should be pretty clinical. I don't have one of the tools to try it. When I do get one I'll give it a go. Thank's for this post Adrian. I have a black bully that has a worn case and was considering buying one of these supposedly NOS cases for an upgrade (as the rest of the watch is mint). I could not make out the fine detail in the sellers listing photographs and now I know why. It's to hide the discrepancies and explains why the case does not come bare but includes pushers, crystal and bezel. So I have not wasted £150, cheers mate Hey has anyone ever tried one of these tools? It gives me a idea about removing damaged crown tubes...just the insert part
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