6139 Pepsi Bezel Insert

[earthphase]

Hello guys....

What are some of the signs of AM inserts?

For instance, my newly acquired 6139 has a "tick" on the bezel under the 60, but I see in most photos that it does not.  Thoughts?

Thanks.

[tritto]

One of the best tells I've seen is with the 5s. Originals have a much more 'closed' opening to the circle, while the fakes seem to have a larger opening.

[HiBeat]

The white "box" under the 60 at 12 oclock is something that, to date,no reproductions have copied (to my knowledge) which would be a sign of of original.

That said, legit originals exist without the box, so not having one does not necessarily mean it is aftermarket.


Aside from the 5s as Tritto says, if the numbers on the bezel are almost touching the outer edge, likely aftermarket.

Post a photo !

[SeikoPsycho]

The easiest way to tell aftermarket from original is looking closely at the 80, 85, + 90 numbers. On aftermarket bezels they are up against the edge of the bezel. On original bezels there is a margin between the number and the edge of the bezel.

You'll also find that there are two different shades of blue on original bezels. A very dark blue and a lighter blue used on the later versions of the bezel. The color change most likely took place  75' - 76'. The aftermarket bezels are all of the lighter blue style and the darker blue style has never been copied.

[pip]

So... this one is dodgy then? It's been posted before but I'd not heard about the 80/85/90 thing. I was told by some people this is AM and some people that it's not. (If you are wondering about my interesting wrist adornment I would point you to the anniversary contest thread and ask you to take up this with cd_god)


I bought the watch from someone (and I paid WAY too much in hindsight) on TOF who told me that it was restored/serviced by the legend that was SwedeFreak/Jonathan Koch (before my time unfortunately, I think I missed out not getting to know him). I have no proof of that and haven't actually had the back off it to see if there are any service marks - does anyone know if he marked casebacks when he'd worked on something? I really must pop the back off and have a look, just didn't want to bugger the seals up.



And this one is ok? Looks like the 90 is touching the rim but that may be the angle. (This is the one that started it all).

[tritto]

I would say your first insert is AM, pip. Note the very open 5s, and off division between blue and red at 60.
I'd say the second is ok.
Here are my two, both original as far as I know.


Note that neither has a box under the 60, but they have closed 5s and 80-90 aren't too close to the edge.

[SeikoPsycho]

Sept 21, 2017 1:41:14 GMT -8 pip said:

So... this one is dodgy then? It's been posted before but I'd not heard about the 80/85/90 thing. I was told by some people this is AM and some people that it's not. (If you are wondering about my interesting wrist adornment I would point you to the anniversary contest thread and ask you to take up this with cd_god )


I bought the watch from someone (and I paid WAY too much in hindsight) on TOF who told me that it was restored/serviced by the legend that was SwedeFreak/Jonathan Koch (before my time unfortunately, I think I missed out not getting to know him). I have no proof of that and haven't actually had the back off it to see if there are any service marks - does anyone know if he marked casebacks when he'd worked on something? I really must pop the back off and have a look, just didn't want to bugger the seals up.



And this one is ok? Looks like the 90 is touching the rim but that may be the angle. (This is the one that started it all).

I also think your bezel insert is aftermarket. On the original Pogue the bezel is hammered in the area around the 80, 85, and 80 numbers so it's hard to see the margin.

As far as Jonathan's concerned, he never serviced movements. He only did case work - refinishing, and sold parts. He sent the movements to Lew B for servicing and Lew didn't mark the inside of the case backs on the ones he serviced for me. When Lew stepped aside and stopped servicing watches for others that's when Spencer stepped in and Jonathan started sending movements for service to Spencer. It was a "Tag team" effort.

[cobrajet25]

Very late bezels have "the tick mark", early ones don't.  I had this discussion with Spencer a few months ago.  I went through all of my 6139s...well, a lot of them...and here is what I came up with.

6009-7/69-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6001-12/70-No mark

6002-7/71-No mark

6005-2/72-No mark

6005-4/72-No mark

6005-6/72-No mark

6005-11/72-No mark

6005-12/72-No mark

6005-3/73-No mark

6005-6/73-No mark

6005-8/73-No mark

6002-3/74-No mark

6002-4/74-No mark

6005-6/74-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6002-9/75-No mark

6005-1/76-No mark

6005-5/77-Mark

6005-2/78-Mark

6005-5/78-Mark

[pip]

Sept 21, 2017 2:25:46 GMT -8 tritto said:

I would say your first insert is AM, pip . Note the very open 5s, and off division between blue and red at 60.
I'd say the second is ok.

Sept 21, 2017 3:55:32 GMT -8 SeikoPsycho said:

I also think your bezel insert is aftermarket. On the original Pogue the bezel is hammered in the area around the 80, 85, and 80 numbers so it's hard to see the margin.

As far as Jonathan's concerned, he never serviced movements. He only did case work - refinishing, and sold parts. He sent the movements to Lew B for servicing and Lew didn't mark the inside of the case backs on the ones he serviced for me. When Lew stepped aside and stopped servicing watches for others that's when Spencer stepped in and Jonathan started sending movements for service to Spencer. It was a "Tag team" effort.

Yep, I think that in the balance my insert is AM. Good to learn about the 80/85/90. I had heard of the 5 thing but have seen some that seem original with slightly different 5's (good old Seiko!). I have another gold 6002 that is quite battered that I've not done a thing with yet, as well as blue franken. I'll look at the inserts to see if one is original.
Interesting to hear about the Jonathan/Lew/Spencer connections, and thanks for the info about the (lack of) caseback marks.

[earthphase]

Sept 21, 2017 4:13:01 GMT -8 cobrajet25 said:

Very late bezels have "the tick mark", early ones don't.  I had this discussion with Spencer a few months ago.  I went through all of my 6139s...well, a lot of them...and here is what I came up with.

6009-7/69-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6001-12/70-No mark

6002-7/71-No mark

6005-2/72-No mark

6005-4/72-No mark

6005-6/72-No mark

6005-11/72-No mark

6005-12/72-No mark

6005-3/73-No mark

6005-6/73-No mark

6005-8/73-No mark

6002-3/74-No mark

6002-4/74-No mark

6005-6/74-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6002-9/75-No mark

6005-1/76-No mark

6005-5/77-Mark

6005-2/78-Mark

6005-5/78-Mark

Lines up with mine.... March 78 with mark.

[Mr.Jones]

'71, '72, and '73 - no mark.

[pip]

Sept 21, 2017 4:13:01 GMT -8 cobrajet25 said:

Very late bezels have "the tick mark", early ones don't.  I had this discussion with Spencer a few months ago.  I went through all of my 6139s...well, a lot of them...and here is what I came up with.

6009-7/69-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6009-3/70-No mark

6001-12/70-No mark

6002-7/71-No mark

6005-2/72-No mark

6005-4/72-No mark

6005-6/72-No mark

6005-11/72-No mark

6005-12/72-No mark

6005-3/73-No mark

6005-6/73-No mark

6005-8/73-No mark

6002-3/74-No mark

6002-4/74-No mark

6005-6/74-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6005-6/75-No mark

6002-9/75-No mark

6005-1/76-No mark

6005-5/77-Mark

6005-2/78-Mark

6005-5/78-Mark

Not all of them? That is 23! No wonder I can never find a decent one, you've got them all!  7dfe79adc2f0

[pip]

And by 'tick mark' do you mean the indicator line / white box type thing under the 60 or is there something else that I'm missing? The thing I'm talking about is showing on HiBeat's image but not on any of the others. Hang on, I'll do an image grab...

[SeikoPsycho]

That is the mark we're referring to. I've also been researching this myself and have come to the conclusion that it was used on the later bezels 76' thru 79' and also replacement bezels from this time frame.

[pip]

Sept 21, 2017 8:42:24 GMT -8 SeikoPsycho said:

That is the mark we're referring to. I've also been researching this myself and have come to the conclusion that it was used on the later bezels 76' thru 79' and also replacement bezels from this time frame.

Coolio, thanks for the confirmation that I wasn’t barking up entirely the wrong tree.

Be interesting to see what month in ‘76 the insert changed.

[Benchdweller]

The easiest way to spot fake vs real, for my eyes at least, is the 140 marker. The horizontal sticky-outy part of the four should stick out pretty far on a real one, the fakes are shorter and look more like a regular four.

[bertnet]

Nos in box 6139-6005 1976 FEBRUARY without mark...


And to compare the light and dark blu bezel.

Dark blu from the early 6139-600X.

[bertnet]

The one I have had,came as parts...


if it could help

[bertnet]

And to complete reference for sure 6139-6007 november 1970 & any 6139-6000 without Mark.

[earthphase]

One of the things i have noticed on the "60 with mark" is the red extends more then half way into the mark before it is blue.