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Post by SeikoPsycho on Mar 29, 2018 2:42:55 GMT -8
I saw this on another forum and thought I'd share it with you guys just in case you haven't seen it. This guy had contacted his Seiko AD about mis-alignment issues with his SRP21A Padi Diver. They in turn contacted Seiko directly. Looks like quality control is out the window.....lol You see guys, It's not an issue after all.........
Here is their response to his AD:
We had forwarded your inquiry to Seiko Japan, they reply as below:
Actually, as the watch is one of the mass produced products, the printing misalignment on the dial and the misalignment of the dial legs’ positions are allowed to some extent; we set the appearance standard. Meanwhile, we think it is difficult to adjust the misalignment by repair as it is due to a variety factor (e.g. dial print, dial legs).
Therefore, please kindly ask the customer to accept the appearance level by explaining the above and the fact that you explained to the customer before the replacement that it could not be guaranteed that the appearance would be improved dramatically as the watch was within standard originally.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 29, 2018 3:00:03 GMT -8
On Seiko....Poor, Very Poor So, Seiko low end quality is crap and Seiko wants us to purchase there up market new lines "PROSPEX" and the like where the quality isn't much different. I'll stick with Vintage 7dfe79adc2f0
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cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
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Post by cobrajet25 on Mar 29, 2018 4:34:05 GMT -8
I am going to translate this response for you guys: "We sell tens of thousands of this model every year. Since only a few dozen people bitch about these alignment issues it isn't worth taking the time or going to the expense to correct it. We will replace the watch, but it will probably have the same issue. Thanks!"
Sucks, but I understand their point of view. It's just business.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 29, 2018 5:07:48 GMT -8
I am going to translate this response for you guys: "We sell tens of thousands of this model every year. Since only a few dozen people bitch about these alignment issues it isn't worth taking the time or going to the expense to correct it. We will replace the watch, but it will probably have the same issue. Thanks!"
Sucks, but I understand their point of view. It's just business. Yeah, Piss Poor Business....
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mikeyt
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Krusty Olde Pharte
Posts: 4,821
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Post by mikeyt on Mar 29, 2018 5:58:30 GMT -8
On Seiko....Poor, Very Poor So, Seiko low end quality is crap and Seiko wants us to purchase there up market new lines "PROSPEX" and the like where the quality isn't much different. I'll stick with Vintage I'd agree, if only I had the tools, the eyesight, and the knowledge to keep a fleet? of vintage watches going. Lately, I've been buying from the micros, and most of those use NH35s or 9015s, with the occasional STP1-11 thrown in.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 7:38:17 GMT -8
I am going to translate this response for you guys: "We sell tens of thousands of this model every year. Since only a few dozen people bitch about these alignment issues it isn't worth taking the time or going to the expense to correct it. We will replace the watch, but it will probably have the same issue. Thanks!"
Sucks, but I understand their point of view. It's just business. Yeah, Piss Poor Business.... It isn't unique to Seiko. Generally speaking, in the last 10 years or so, Japanese quality has taken a back seat to profits. As with watches, you used to be able to count on top of the line quality with entry level products from Japan, no matter if it was a watch, a camera or an automobile. Speaking of cameras; Japanese camera makers have taken the stand that any problems with cameras are the owners fault and very little will be taken care of by warranty. This is an arena where the USA could get back in the business of producing excellent consumables...oh wait, there are unions Maybe if Trump broke up the unions like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers; America could get back to being a lead manufacturing nation
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Post by SeikoPsycho on Mar 29, 2018 8:52:06 GMT -8
It seems with today's technology it would be an easy fix:
Step 1. Locating chapter ring notch in case matches and snugly fits the "tab" on the chapter ring
Step 2. 12 O'clock marker on chapter ring is painted directly above the locating tab.
Step 3. Bezel insert installed to match.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 29, 2018 10:48:18 GMT -8
Yeah, Piss Poor Business.... It isn't unique to Seiko. Generally speaking, in the last 10 years or so, Japanese quality has taken a back seat to profits. As with watches, you used to be able to count on top of the line quality with entry level products from Japan, no matter if it was a watch, a camera or an automobile. Speaking of cameras; Japanese camera makers have taken the stand that any problems with cameras are the owners fault and very little will be taken care of by warranty. This is an arena where the USA could get back in the business of producing excellent consumables...oh wait, there are unions Maybe if Trump broke up the unions like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers; America could get back to being a lead manufacturing nation May not be just Seiko, But we are talking Seiko here, Not anything else.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Mar 29, 2018 15:17:58 GMT -8
It's all relative to price point, can't always expect perfection when spending a few hundred bucks.
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Mar 29, 2018 17:04:14 GMT -8
Anyone with the skills can correct it this way - 1. Remove crystal 2. Remove "Nub" from underside of dial ring 3. Put in movement and line up dial ring 4. Stick dial ring to case with a dial dot The printing error is on the dial ring from what I can see, so while you'll correct the 12 oclock, the 6 might be a smidge off. It seems with today's technology it would be an easy fix: Step 1. Locating chapter ring notch in case matches and snugly fits the "tab" on the chapter ring Step 2. 12 O'clock marker on chapter ring is painted directly above the locating tab. Step 3. Bezel insert installed to match.
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HiBeat
Global Moderator
SEIKO Iko Iko GDTRWS
Posts: 8,642
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Post by HiBeat on Mar 29, 2018 17:21:14 GMT -8
Such a sad testament. Understandable from the profit consideration, but still sad.
i recall playing around with enough chapter rings over the years on all sorts of models. If it is not centered then it can’t line up at all hour markers. Anybody think this could be a part of it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2018 21:22:35 GMT -8
Such a sad testament. Understandable from the profit consideration, but still sad. i recall playing around with enough chapter rings over the years on all sorts of models. If it is not centered then it can’t line up at all hour markers. Anybody think this could be a part of it? It's a combination of things. Perhaps printing on the ring but definitely physical alignment. Additionally the dial can be off center. This is due mostly to the fit and finish of the plastic movement spacer. The old system that held the dial feet in the movement with screws or cam cleats ensured the dial was always properly placed and aligned. Seiko saved money on the screws/cam cleats and an assembly process by going to the unified movement spacer that also holds the dial feet. Sadly this system cannot be made to the same tolerances.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 30, 2018 4:25:16 GMT -8
It's all relative to price point, can't always expect perfection when spending a few hundred bucks. Relative because of price point would make it deliberate.
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
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Post by cobrajet25 on Mar 30, 2018 5:50:37 GMT -8
It's all relative to price point, can't always expect perfection when spending a few hundred bucks. Relative because of price point would make it deliberate... ...or simple indifference.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 30, 2018 6:03:29 GMT -8
Relative because of price point would make it deliberate... ...or simple indifference. Indifferent would define that Seiko does not care about it, Then I don't care to purchase it either
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small
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,438
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Post by small on Mar 30, 2018 6:44:56 GMT -8
Yeah, Piss Poor Business.... It isn't unique to Seiko. Generally speaking, in the last 10 years or so, Japanese quality has taken a back seat to profits. As with watches, you used to be able to count on top of the line quality with entry level products from Japan, no matter if it was a watch, a camera or an automobile. Speaking of cameras; Japanese camera makers have taken the stand that any problems with cameras are the owners fault and very little will be taken care of by warranty. This is an arena where the USA could get back in the business of producing excellent consumables...oh wait, there are unions Maybe if Trump broke up the unions like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers; America could get back to being a lead manufacturing nation Boy I hope this was sarcasm.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Mar 30, 2018 7:06:34 GMT -8
It's all relative to price point, can't always expect perfection when spending a few hundred bucks. Relative because of price point would make it deliberate. Hardly, it's all about tolerances and QC. If you've ever worked in a machine shop, or the like, you'd understand that part. Lower margins on a product, will typically result in this kind of occasional flaw IMO.
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Post by DAHASCO on Mar 30, 2018 7:16:48 GMT -8
Relative because of price point would make it deliberate. Hardly, it's all about tolerances and QC. If you've ever worked in a machine shop, or the like, you'd understand that part. Lower margins on a product, will typically result in this kind of occasional flaw IMO. Or, Like in the case of seiko...Lack of QC is intentional. New/Reissue models are just a marketing ploy that plays off the interest of the original models, Simply for profit, Not Customer Satisfaction. Actually, as the watch is one of the mass produced products, the printing misalignment on the dial and the misalignment of the dial legs’ positions are allowed to some extent; we set the appearance standard. Meanwhile, we think it is difficult to adjust the misalignment by repair as it is due to a variety factor (e.g. dial print, dial legs). Therefore, please kindly ask the customer to accept the appearance level by explaining the above and the fact that you explained to the customer before the replacement that it could not be guaranteed that the appearance would be improved dramatically as the watch was within standard originally.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Mar 30, 2018 7:47:19 GMT -8
Hardly, it's all about tolerances and QC. If you've ever worked in a machine shop, or the like, you'd understand that part. Lower margins on a product, will typically result in this kind of occasional flaw IMO. Or, Like in the case of seiko...Lack of QC is intentional. New/Reissue models are just a marketing ploy that plays off the interest of the original models, Simply for profit, Not Customer Satisfaction. Actually, as the watch is one of the mass produced products, the printing misalignment on the dial and the misalignment of the dial legs’ positions are allowed to some extent; we set the appearance standard. Meanwhile, we think it is difficult to adjust the misalignment by repair as it is due to a variety factor (e.g. dial print, dial legs). Therefore, please kindly ask the customer to accept the appearance level by explaining the above and the fact that you explained to the customer before the replacement that it could not be guaranteed that the appearance would be improved dramatically as the watch was within standard originally. I personally have no problem with their response, it's very common in mass production. Oh, and "allowed to some extent", is not the same as "intentional" IMO.
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Post by meanoldmanning on Mar 30, 2018 7:49:12 GMT -8
Are these issues continual, or have they progressively started to appear in particular models? By that I mean, are the issues in alignment known throughout the run of particular models or have they slowly crept in as dies and the print pads wear out, with Seiko not willing to replaces this 'tooling' as they get to the end of their intended production run? I'd guess continual throughout a model run as the SRP77x models all seem to have examples with alignment issues. Neither case is acceptable, just curious.
I do recall a discussion somewhere about whether a new, unused 6105 dial was genuine or not, and one of the issues called out was the indexes were not as sharp. My guess was that it was a service part created late in a dies useful life and was stamped out as cleanly.
And as I mentioned on the other forum, I've been lucky so far and haven't had an issue with the handful of new divers I've purchased over the last couple of years. Hopefully my luck continues.
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