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Post by seikoholic on Aug 11, 2014 10:00:36 GMT -8
When it comes to 6139-600x's there are several parts that are very hard to find now. One is the chronograph wheel. The other is the stem with it's square section for the indicator ring gear. IF they can be found, they're getting to be very expensive. I have some stashed away, but they are precious. I am working on reproducing this stem, part 357612. I have a company fairly local to me who has some older computer-controlled Citizen machining lathes and parts makers, and they're working to reverse-engineer this stem for me.
My questions are these: - Is there a call for new-made 357612's - will people buy them?
- If people would buy them, would it be an occasional seller or a big seller?
- What is a reasonable price per for these?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 11:24:29 GMT -8
When it comes to 6139-600x's there are several parts that are very hard to find now. One is the chronograph wheel. The other is the stem with it's square section for the indicator ring gear. IF they can be found, they're getting to be very expensive. I have some stashed away, but they are precious. I am working on reproducing this stem, part 357612. I have a company fairly local to me who has some older computer-controlled Citizen machining lathes and parts makers, and they're working to reverse-engineer this stem for me.
My questions are these: - Is there a call for new-made 357612's - will people buy them?
- If people would buy them, would it be an occasional seller or a big seller?
- What is a reasonable price per for these?
My guess is that people will buy them. It may be a big seller or an occasional seller. Everything depends on the price. I would price them the same as an OEM part when they were available. |
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Post by Groundhog66 on Aug 11, 2014 11:36:15 GMT -8
I guess it all depends upon, how big the initial investment will be. I think it would be great, if you could get some distributors lined up. Selling them one at a time, wouldn't work very well IMO.
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
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Post by cobrajet25 on Aug 11, 2014 11:57:52 GMT -8
When it comes to 6139-600x's there are several parts that are very hard to find now. One is the chronograph wheel. The other is the stem with it's square section for the indicator ring gear. IF they can be found, they're getting to be very expensive. I have some stashed away, but they are precious. I am working on reproducing this stem, part 357612. I have a company fairly local to me who has some older computer-controlled Citizen machining lathes and parts makers, and they're working to reverse-engineer this stem for me.
My questions are these: - Is there a call for new-made 357612's - will people buy them?
- If people would buy them, would it be an occasional seller or a big seller?
- What is a reasonable price per for these?
1) Yes, this is a failure-prone part. But without a correct repro crown, stem gear, and spring to go with it, the correct stem becomes less important. These parts work as a system. I think a drop-in reproduction stem/gear/spring/crown assembly would be a sales monster! This stem is also used for many of the 70m sport divers, so there would be that market as well. 2) Probably somewhere between "occasional" and "big". But with interest in these watches increasing and prices steadily rising, I think they'd do well. 3) Only the market can decide that, but I'd tend to agree with Pete that a price near the original price would probably be safe. At least to start with. |
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Post by seikoholic on Aug 11, 2014 12:39:54 GMT -8
I'm looking at an initial investment of around the 3k mark for both the stem and the gear. This is research, measuring, test pieces, etc. Like Aaron said my original vision was selling complete stem assemblies - crown, stem, gear, and spring. The crowns are available and aren't bad. It's just a matter then of the springs. But all of the parts plus time to assemble would be a huge cost and time investment per piece - one that I don't know would be supported by current prices. The day will come though.
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Post by SeikoPsycho on Aug 11, 2014 15:26:42 GMT -8
I think in the long run it would be a recoverable investment but you'd need the complete package as Aaron suggested.
With the stem needing to be trimmed to fit correctly, would it be a good idea to try and pre-assemble them?
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cobrajet25
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Post by cobrajet25 on Aug 11, 2014 17:47:04 GMT -8
I think in the long run it would be a recoverable investment but you'd need the complete package as Aaron suggested. With the stem needing to be trimmed to fit correctly, would it be a good idea to try and pre-assemble them? Sell the assemblies with pre-trimmed stems..."model specific"? There would probably only be 3-4 different lengths needed. One for the 6119-602x (small case, short stem), one for the 6139-600x/603x (medium case, medium stem), one for the 6119/6106 sport divers (large case, long stem), etc. Right? Once we figured out the exact amount of stem that needed to be nipped off for each model, assembling them to order shouldn't be that much of a chore. Maybe.  |
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sdoocms
Is a Permanent Fixture
Carl
Posts: 5,296
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Post by sdoocms on Aug 11, 2014 18:01:36 GMT -8
Yes! Spencer if you are able to manage the investment then I would do it. I am not through buy junk watches yet and you have seen some of the wabi'd watches I have sent you. I would hate to buy a 'klunker", that need this part, and there were none available!
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Post by seikoholic on Aug 11, 2014 19:28:30 GMT -8
I think in the long run it would be a recoverable investment but you'd need the complete package as Aaron suggested. With the stem needing to be trimmed to fit correctly, would it be a good idea to try and pre-assemble them? Sell the assemblies with pre-trimmed stems..."model specific"? There would probably only be 3-4 different lengths needed. One for the 6119-602x (small case, short stem), one for the 6139-600x/603x (medium case, medium stem), one for the 6119/6106 sport divers (large case, long stem), etc. Right? Once we figured out the exact amount of stem that needed to be nipped off for each model, assembling them to order shouldn't be that much of a chore. Maybe. The sport divers use a slightly different stem - 357611. Ever so slightly longer barrel section between the square part where the gear rides and the crown is. I'm not 100% on if they use the same model gear either, not sure about the tooth dimensions. |
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Post by SeikoPsycho on Aug 12, 2014 3:27:15 GMT -8
Sell the assemblies with pre-trimmed stems..."model specific"? There would probably only be 3-4 different lengths needed. One for the 6119-602x (small case, short stem), one for the 6139-600x/603x (medium case, medium stem), one for the 6119/6106 sport divers (large case, long stem), etc. Right? Once we figured out the exact amount of stem that needed to be nipped off for each model, assembling them to order shouldn't be that much of a chore. Maybe. The sport divers use a slightly different stem - 357611. Ever so slightly longer barrel section between the square part where the gear rides and the crown is. I'm not 100% on if they use the same model gear either, not sure about the tooth dimensions. According to my casing guide all the sport divers use the 357612 stem. |
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cobrajet25
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Post by cobrajet25 on Aug 12, 2014 4:17:59 GMT -8
The sport divers use a slightly different stem - 357611. Ever so slightly longer barrel section between the square part where the gear rides and the crown is. I'm not 100% on if they use the same model gear either, not sure about the tooth dimensions. According to my casing guide all the sport divers use the 357612 stem. My '68 and '69 Guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020 and 6106-6059. Later guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020, and 357612 for the 6119-6023, 6119-6400, 6106-6439, 6106-6057, 6119-7160 (Sushi), etc, etc.. Navigator Timers, World Timers, and some early sport divers (61xxA/B?) all seem to list the 357611. A few early sport divers, all later sport divers (61xxC?), and the 6139s list the 357612. The 357612 stem doesn't fit all sport divers, but it does fit most.
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Post by seikoholic on Aug 12, 2014 8:12:30 GMT -8
According to my casing guide all the sport divers use the 357612 stem. My '68 and '69 Guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020 and 6106-6059. Later guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020, and 357612 for the 6119-6023, 6119-6400, 6106-6439, 6106-6057, 6119-7160 (Sushi), etc, etc.. Navigator Timers, World Timers, and some early sport divers (61xxA/B?) all seem to list the 357611. A few early sport divers, all later sport divers (61xxC?), and the 6139s list the 357612. The 357612 stem doesn't fit all sport divers, but it does fit most.
Good info. One of the things I'm lacking is a comprehensive collection of casing guides. I have all the servicing guides. Interestingly, when I first starting looking into this I pulled the stem assembly from an all-original 6106-7107, an early one, and it was the 357611. |
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Post by SeikoPsycho on Aug 12, 2014 8:42:54 GMT -8
According to my casing guide all the sport divers use the 357612 stem. My '68 and '69 Guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020 and 6106-6059. Later guides specify the 357611 for the 6119-6020, and 357612 for the 6119-6023, 6119-6400, 6106-6439, 6106-6057, 6119-7160 (Sushi), etc, etc.. Navigator Timers, World Timers, and some early sport divers (61xxA/B?) all seem to list the 357611. A few early sport divers, all later sport divers (61xxC?), and the 6139s list the 357612. The 357612 stem doesn't fit all sport divers, but it does fit most.
Yes, that is good info Aaron! I didn't look through all my casing guides and didn't consider the 6119-6020 or 6023, nor the 6106-6059, world times, or navigator timers. |
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HiBeat
Global Moderator
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Post by HiBeat on Aug 14, 2014 10:16:22 GMT -8
When I had a few 3-packs of the 357611's for sale they sold like hot cakes. I'm not in it for the money so I probably gave them away too cheap.
One guy offered me a lot of money for the rotating bezel style stem but I never did have any. I'd say demand may be low but selling price you can fetch should be decent. My guess is $20 per stem would be fair.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2014 11:56:55 GMT -8
I'd be up for 10 or more of these at a time if you ever were to get them made. I brought 20 genuine bracelets for the 6139-6005/9's the other day and just stuffed them in a draw as they will always get used up. Paid way too much for them but still. Anyway I've been offered 1 only NOS winding stem for £45 ($75). I can buy a complete case & movement for that so it does not make sense for me to splash out that much and I need three at the moment anyway. The gear is hard to find but I picked up about 6 of them with springs NOS a while back and the crowns which I do not have in stock. I'd say a fair price would be $10 each or a little more but if production costs push the price right up I'd rather make them myself on my watch lathe as I've been doing up till now but it's so time consuming!
Just my thoughts. I also know another couple of guys who'd take a fair few from you for sure.
Toodle pip,
T
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Post by seikoholic on Oct 8, 2014 12:25:04 GMT -8
It's sort of funny. This whole idea started because a guy local to me, a small fine machining company, bought a Citizen computer-controlled machine specifically designed to make small watch parts. They thought it'd be simple and profitable to make small parts for watches, to show that these things could be made in America.
Well, despite glowing promises and smooth sailing ahead messages, I had my doubts. I knew there were issues when the shop owner wrote to ask me if I had the schematics for the stem. He had several original stems on hand, right in front of him, that I'd mailed him, but couldn't figure out what size they were, what dimensions. I had to tell him basic stuff like what tap they were. Then he said he'd have to sub them out to someone else to look at, but couldn't guarantee anything, but if I cared to "invest" $2500 he could make a start on it. I wouldn't get any parts or finished products or even a prototype for this, by the way. It'd be "research money". So, the remanufactured 357612 is not going to happen anytime soon, sadly.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Oct 8, 2014 12:36:56 GMT -8
That does not sound like a fantastic deal, too bad.
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Post by SpinDoctor on Oct 8, 2014 14:10:28 GMT -8
Lol... Hey watch guy.... How do you turn my machine on?
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Oct 8, 2014 15:25:18 GMT -8
Coming from a machining and manufacturing background, what you're hearing there is really bizarre and I'd steer clear. If they are a pro shop they can either make them or not, "investment money" is really fkn queer. They should be able to do a one off sample to show you the job can be done or not. On another note, I've hoarded these things and the gears, so there is a market there. I think I have maybe 10 or more of each squirreled away. I'm not selling. It's sort of funny. This whole idea started because a guy local to me, a small fine machining company, bought a Citizen computer-controlled machine specifically designed to make small watch parts. They thought it'd be simple and profitable to make small parts for watches, to show that these things could be made in America. Well, despite glowing promises and smooth sailing ahead messages, I had my doubts. I knew there were issues when the shop owner wrote to ask me if I had the schematics for the stem. He had several original stems on hand, right in front of him, that I'd mailed him, but couldn't figure out what size they were, what dimensions. I had to tell him basic stuff like what tap they were. Then he said he'd have to sub them out to someone else to look at, but couldn't guarantee anything, but if I cared to "invest" $2500 he could make a start on it. I wouldn't get any parts or finished products or even a prototype for this, by the way. It'd be "research money". So, the remanufactured 357612 is not going to happen anytime soon, sadly. |
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Post by seikoholic on Oct 8, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -8
This guy started wondering about his abilities and acumen when we were first talking. He asked about other parts I'd like to see created, and I started talking about the holy grail: 888610 / 888611 / 888612. Chronograph center wheels. I told him flat-out that it was impossible, period. Multi-part components made as a single piece in the factory to extremely tight tolerances using a multitude of materials. Steel, stainless steel, brass, with incredibly tiny parts, and even an eccentric screw. The guy said "oh I bet we can do that, I'm sure we can!". And I just thought "suuuuuuure you can, buddy".
He can't even measure a stem, as it turns out.
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