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Post by seikoholic on May 6, 2015 13:37:20 GMT -8
The last four 6105-811x's I've had come through which were original and untouched all had the same crystal. It's not one that we make. Jonathan ID'd them and our company has their specs, but he chose for whatever reason not to have them produced, choosing instead to have the high-topped Type I and the much lower and curve-topped Type III made. The Type II's have all been on completely original and untouched examples made between 1972 and late 1975. Jonathan always said the Type I stopped being made in 1970, so I can assume that this Type II came around at that point. I guess the question is, should the Type II be made? I see more of them than I ever see of Type I's or Type III's, honestly. They would seem to me to be the core 6105 crystal. But if we sold them, it would cut the feet out of the Type III and make the Type I much less special. Thoughts? Here's a stock & original Type II in place on a '74 6105:    |
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Post by SeikoPsycho on May 6, 2015 14:54:41 GMT -8
According to Jonathan type 2 and type 4 weren't made in any significant numbers.
Do you have a height measurement?
From Jonathan:
I did a lot of research on the 320W10GN00, which has four variants over its run of nearly fifteen years. The second and fourth variants are insignificant as they were not made any any appreciable numbers.
What I now call "Type I": The oldest (correct for pre-1972 models) has a flat top and inside dome. It measures 3.85mm high with frosted sidewall and polished bevel. The crisp edge of this crystal is a chip magnet. In the early '70s I remember seeing fairly new watches coming in for new crystals, within weeks in some instances, due to chips and nicks on the top edge. My assumption is Seiko got tired of these complaints and dropped the height by 0.20mm. This doesn't sound like much but it's enough to get that edge closer to the bezel of a sport watch or the rotating ring of a dive watch. Also, flat-top crystals are terribly reflective. Double domes are far less so which is why this makes sense for a dive watch. Also, the double dome is much more structurally sound than flat/flat or flat/domed.
What I refer to as "Type III": Third is double domed but is only 3.63mm +/- 0.02mm high with frosted edge and polished bevel. This is the most common variant and after 1972 became correct for both OEM and service replacement applications. Thus, if your 1970 watch has the "Type III" crystal, it was replaced as part of a service after 1972 and IS STILL CONSIDERED CORRECT.
__________________
"Go forth, my progeny, grab the world by the balls, squeeze hard and shake vigorously." J. Koch
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Post by seikoholic on May 6, 2015 15:12:33 GMT -8
I have much more information from Jonathan than you do, Tom, made in greater detail and much later than that post. And yes, I measured. Trust me on this. Why else would I have made this post? Also, love Jonathan as I most certainly did, he was human and therefore fallible. He was capable of making mistakes. He himself said so many times to me. Seiko will always frustrate our attempts to know everything about what they did. Jonathan was the first person to acknowledge this.
As I said in my post above, the last four of these I've seen have been Type II's. Thus the question. If I'd seen one, then it would have been an anomaly. Two? Interesting coincidence. Three? That's weird. Four? Ok, time to think about producing them.
I am interested in hearing from 6105 enthusiasts & collectors about what they would prefer to put into their watches.
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Post by catkicker on May 6, 2015 15:25:51 GMT -8
It's a question of originality if I send you a 6105 and it needs a new crystal I'm going to want it replaced with the same type, whether it's type I or type II
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Post by seikoholic on May 6, 2015 15:40:23 GMT -8
It's a question of originality if I send you a 6105 and it needs a new crystal I'm going to want it replaced with the same type, whether it's type I or type II Yeah, I'm with you. What really brought this up to me were two things: first, this watch pictured at the top. I can't offer this guy the same exact crystal. That's frustrating. Secondly, our crystal company called me today about something totally different, and it got me to thinking about having a run of these done. |
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Post by nom nom on May 6, 2015 16:22:03 GMT -8
Tough call. I'm not very business minded, but I agree, that it would be really nice to have the option if the goal is restoring the 6105 to as close as original as possible. Best of luck on making a decision.
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Post by SeikoPsycho on May 6, 2015 17:36:23 GMT -8
Spencer, I respect your position as I respected Jonathan's position. I also had many conversations with Jonathan as well and I have my own research to back up what Jonathan originally stated so I know more then you're assuming.
I'm sure we can both agree there are no known "facts" when it comes to Seiko, only speculation from what we can collect, examine, and share.
I took measurements of 20 nos Seiko 320W10GN's with a high quality digital micrometer. Before and after each measurement I checked to see if the micrometer was still zeroed when closed for accuracy. Here are my findings:
Out of twenty crystals:
3 Type 1: Single dome, flat top measures 3.81mm to 3.89mm
4 Type 2: Double dome measures 3.76mm to 3.85mm
10 Type 3: Double dome measures 3.57mm to 3.70mm
3 Type 4: Double dome measures 3.48mm to 3.52mm
Based on these findings they collaborate what Jonathan shared on March 9th 2014. That the most popular 320W10GN crystal is the type 3.
So, what were the measurements you took from your 4 crystals if you don't mind sharing??
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Post by catkicker on May 6, 2015 17:48:00 GMT -8
I like many others with these vintage Seiko have to send them to people who service, restore and reverse the the ravishes of time on these beauty's. For the most part I could care less about technical crap or where you got a single jewel to replace another one or what friggin donor watch was sacraficed for the good of my vintage Seiko restoration.
we want it done right and don't want to settle for the next best thing or only I will know it's not the same as original.
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Post by seikoholic on May 6, 2015 17:52:26 GMT -8
I like many others with these vintage Seiko have to send them to people who service, restore and reverse the the ravishes of time on these beauty's. For the most part I could care less about technical crap or where you got a single jewel to replace another one or what friggin donor watch was sacraficed for the good of my vintage Seiko restoration. we want it done right and don't want to settle for the next best thing or only I will know it's not the same as original. In a perfect world, we'd have all four variants available, and that might happen. Ideally it'd be awesome to be able to say "your watch came with a Type X, and that's what we'll put it". Right now we can't do that, but if there's call for it, we'll do it. I personally prefer the look of this crystal, this height. The fact that the last four straight have had it, and from such a wide range of dates, just pushed me a bit further to think about having them redone. |
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Post by Groundhog66 on May 6, 2015 17:56:33 GMT -8
I've gotten the crystals replaced on both of my 61505-811x's, and I couldn't tell you what they replaced it with. IMO, if the crystal is AM, I could really care less if it was a type 1/2/3 or 4. Because at the end of the day, it's AM. If I were going OEM, I guess I'd care more, but it still would not be necessary to replace a type 2 with a type 2...I'd just want it to be period correct.
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Post by saul on May 6, 2015 19:22:25 GMT -8
Phooey on all of you (a pox on both your houses)! I say all 6105's get Bubble Boys!  But seriously...I've had a sapphire replacement in my 6105-8110 forever. I think about going back to TMG and now the choices just get harder...1st world problems are a bitch. |
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357 
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Post by cobrajet25 on May 7, 2015 1:07:51 GMT -8
I honestly don't care for the super tall ones. As has been said, they are 'chip magnets'. Then again, I also don't care for the ones that are near level with the bezel. The replaceable crystal can do a lot to protect those irreplaceable original bezels. Sign me up for the one in the middle!  |
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Post by dnill on May 7, 2015 3:33:22 GMT -8
I would love to have a type II available. My 6105 is a from 1974 and a type II crystal was installed on the watch when it came to me. All original and untouched. I've since installed your type III and think the watch would look a bit better with a little higher dome. I searched for the better part of a year to find a NOS type II but to no success.
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Post by philsinclair on May 7, 2015 5:11:49 GMT -8
Hi. What sort of bucks would a Type 2 be worth. Cheers Phil
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Myles
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Post by Myles on May 7, 2015 5:23:24 GMT -8
Are there reproductions of the "Type I" for sale? What do they sell for?
Myles
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Post by seikoholic on May 7, 2015 14:37:25 GMT -8
Hi. What sort of bucks would a Type 2 be worth. Cheers Phil Price would be comparable to our other 320W10GN00 crystals. I'm with most of the rest of you, I actually think the Type II could be the 6105 crystal. I don't think the observed frequencies quite cover actual commonality or rarity of these, we just can't know for sure. As I've said, the last four 6105s to come through here had the Type II. The dimensions seems great. It'd be a good middle ground. |
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Post by seikoholic on May 7, 2015 14:38:55 GMT -8
Are there reproductions of the "Type I" for sale? What do they sell for? Myles Yes, you bet. Jonathan came up with them, and because we inherited his crystals - designs, trademarks, descriptions etc - we now make them. A message here to my wife Sabrina (thecrystalentity) or an email to her at s.linnklein@gmail.com will get you one shipped for $38 USD. |
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Post by Groundhog66 on May 7, 2015 14:46:59 GMT -8
I've still got my two OEM crystal somewhere, I should check to see what type they are.
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Post by philsinclair on May 7, 2015 14:51:47 GMT -8
Hi. I mean as NOS one in original Seiko packaging. Cheers Phil
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Post by seikoholic on May 7, 2015 19:18:34 GMT -8
Hi. I mean as NOS one in original Seiko packaging. Cheers Phil Last time I saw an NOS 320W10GN00 for sale in open bidding on eBay it sold around $110. I don't know what version it was. |
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