Smiths Deluxe watch - 1962 - any info appreciated

[leffemonster]

Below is, I believe, an English made Smiths Deluxe manual wind watch presented to my grandfather in 1962 to mark 25 years employment with British Aluminium Company. I'm looking for any info anyone might be able to offer on it, as I know nothing about it other than what can be seen on the dial. There are no case back markings other than an inscription from BAC. A search on 'tinternet hasn't offered any concrete answers either.



It's a non-runner (can't wind the bugger up at all so reckon the spring is goosed) but the hands do move. One of the lugs (top right) is also bent and possibly split as well.

I'd appreciate anything you good fellows in WS-land might be able to tell me.

Regards,

Nick

[tritto]

That's a nice little watch Leffemonster and great to have your grandfather's watch. All I know about Smiths is that their more well known model is the Smiths Everest (of which the Deluxe was the forerunner). So named because someone wore it climbing said mountain I think. It didn't quite achieve the prestige of the Rolex Explorer though.
I believe Timefactors now owns the Smiths name and has released a variety of homage watches.

[Adrian-VTA]

Smiths are a nice mid-range piece. By this point they are probably an AS movement (A. Schild), or derivative.

They are better known for chronometric speedometers commonly used on vintage Brit bikes.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiths_Group

"This watch chronometer and instrument makers business was established by Samuel Smith in London in 1851. Their premises were in The Strand and they were watchmakers to the Admiralty. Retailing and wholesaling of Smiths-branded motor accessories was added in 1904 when a Watford supplier turned out Smith's first speedometer—The Perfect Speed Indicator. Growth was fast. Smiths began to manufacture some of their own motor products particularly speedometers. From mid-1913 all motor accessories activities were carried out from handsome purpose-built premises at Speedometer House, 179-185 Great Portland Street ("Motor Row"). The premises in the Strand became a Lyons tearoom but jewellers establishments were retained at Trafalgar Square and 68 Piccadilly. By this time motor accessories production included Smiths multiple-jet carburettors (designed by Trier & Martin), lighting sets[note 1] and electric starters, generators and the Smith's Auto-Clear mechanical horn.[5]"

[leffemonster]

Thanks guys. The Everest was apparently worn by Edmund Hillary when he conquered Everest in 1953.

Shame that my grandfather's watch is wrecked, it would have been nice to wear it. Not worth looking to get it fixed I imagine. Mind you, I've also got his (very blunt) khukuri Gurkha knives that he brought back from India in 1945, and I'm not planning using those either...

[tritto]

Why not keep an eye out for a donor watch just in case. I reckon you could pick one up pretty cheap £25ish? That way if you ever decide to restore it you have parts and a non-broken case.

[tritto]

Nope, I was wrong. A completed listing search shows that they sell for quite a bit more than that.

[Adrian-VTA]

How bad is wrecked?

Show us a pic of the broken lug bit and whip the back off if you can. I bet it's refurbishable.

Sept 28, 2015 22:13:03 GMT -8 leffemonster said:

Thanks guys. The Everest was apparently worn by Edmund Hillary when he conquered Everest in 1953.

Shame that my grandfather's watch is wrecked, it would have been nice to wear it. Not worth looking to get it fixed I imagine. Mind you, I've also got his (very blunt) khukuri Gurkha knives that he brought back from India in 1945, and I'm not planning using those either...

[leffemonster]

Well, I say wrecked based on what my local jeweller told me a couple of years ago when I enquired about having it serviced. His comment was "it'll cost way more than it'll ever be worth to get it going again."

The crown moves freely anti-clockwise, but won't budge a millimetre clockwise - it feels like it does when fully wound. Pop the crown out and the hands move freely with no friction. Now, I know nothing about the mechanics of watch movements so don't have any idea what this might indicate but I know something ain't right behind the caseback!

It looks like the back is screw-down as it has the 6 notches, and unfortunately I don't have a suitable tool to remove it (Unless I use my mini stilsons...). I'll try and take some close-ups of the lug tonight and post them, and if I can remove the caseback somehow I'll photo the inside as well - but this might not be achievable.

If I can get it fixed for a reasonable price it would be great, but my gut feeling is this won't be the case. I don't believe they're a common watch so parts probably aren't that common?

[Adrian-VTA]

Still doesn't sound terminal. I disagree and find a lot of watchmakers can be a little "lazy". Why would he spend his time on this when he can turn a bunch of Omega's in a similar amount of time. I understand the business side of it, but don't think his advice was entirely accurate. A lot of people will use this tactic if the job doesn't work for them, quote a price too high or say it's too hard so you don't go ahead.

In any case, here's some more info about the movement -

www.smithswatches.com/products/smiths-deluxe-solid-9ct-gold-gents-wristwatch-1956-presentation-watch-with-heavy-screw-back-case

If the crown won't turn clockwise, it's an indication something is awry with the keyless works or the mainspring, in most cases.

Also, if the case on yours is 9kt, the melt price alone of the case is worth about the price of a service.

Clearly I'm encouraging you to get it fixed because I think it's worth it!

The guy on that site is selling serviced ones, same as yours, for 450 quid +.

Sept 29, 2015 0:38:37 GMT -8 leffemonster said:

Well, I say wrecked based on what my local jeweller told me a couple of years ago when I enquired about having it serviced. His comment was "it'll cost way more than it'll ever be worth to get it going again."

The crown moves freely anti-clockwise, but won't budge a millimetre clockwise - it feels like it does when fully wound. Pop the crown out and the hands move freely with no friction. Now, I know nothing about the mechanics of watch movements so don't have any idea what this might indicate but I know something ain't right behind the caseback!

It looks like the back is screw-down as it has the 6 notches, and unfortunately I don't have a suitable tool to remove it (Unless I use my mini stilsons...). I'll try and take some close-ups of the lug tonight and post them, and if I can remove the caseback somehow I'll photo the inside as well - but this might not be achievable.

If I can get it fixed for a reasonable price it would be great, but my gut feeling is this won't be the case. I don't believe they're a common watch so parts probably aren't that common?

[leffemonster]

Thanks for the link - I found the same late last night and had a look. The shop referred to actually isn't too far from where I live, but looking at the prices for a basic service (which I think was £150 from memory) I thought "too much".

I don't think the case on mine is 9ct but I guess I won't know until I get the back off. If nothing else, I need to get that done asap. I'll ask my wife to pop in to see our jeweller tomorrow and get the back off (think I'll dismiss the stilson idea!).

[leffemonster]

Well, turned out a trip to the jeweller wasn't needed thanks to a pair of long-nosed pliers carefully inserted in opposite notches on the caseback. Gentle twist and it was turning!

So, what's inside? Well, the case definitely isn't 9ct IMO, just plain old steel I think. The caseback has no hallmarks, in fact no markings at all -





The movement is marked as 17J Made in England, 27.C.S.(calibre?) and also has '6111' marked on it as well, which might indicate year and month of manufacture?



As as can be seen, it's pretty grotty inside but nothing appears to be immediately out of place so far as I can see. Now, what about that jug? Apologies for the ropy photos but my macro isn't the best and artificial light doesn't help much either but here goes -

      

Your thoughts, as far more experienced and knowledgable people than me, would be greatly appreciated. I'm also going to fire these off to the chap who runs the Smiths Watches website here in the UK - he should be able to tell me definitively what I've got. Assuming  he replies I'll of course let you all know. 

I'd also like to know off him, or anyone else, what the likelihood of finding spares might be. Something is clearly not as it should be, but I don't know what or how easy or otherwise it might be to fix it.

your views and comments would be appreciated.

Nick

[djh584]

Well to start you off have a look at this link www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?12&ranfft&&2uswk&Smiths_27_CS courtesy of Roland Ranfft. The 27.CS started life back in 1950 as a 15 jewel movement. If the mainspring on yours is shot, that link gives a 15 jewel mainspring size that you could start with.

David

[leffemonster]

Thanks David, appreciated. Will need to scour the Bay of Evil I suspect for a donor piece. Quick search shows a few on there, just need to get lucky! Now I've got the back off at least I have something to search for!

[Adrian-VTA]

You'll need the mainspring for the 12.15. They don't have one listed for the 27.CS. Lists it as part number GR.4536, which should be readily available from Cousins.

[leffemonster]

Thanks Adrian, that's really useful info. Seems like Cousins have them in stock but they don't hold a lot of other Smiths parts.

The guy from the Smithswatches website has replied, albeit somewhat less helpfully than I'd hoped -

"There's no info on these or specific model numbers as two models at least were specially commissioned with standard insides but aluminium case tops for the company concerned. As such the watch can be repaired but the top can't be made pretty. Standard first service/overhaul charge 150.00 including return insured post all parts except the balance and strap."

I've already tapped up Simon about having a look at it and he's up for the challenge, though he's pretty tied up for a month or so on other stuff.

[skww]

This is really insightful! Thank you Nick. As soon as I am able I will post a picture for you to see.