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Post by Groundhog66 on Nov 9, 2015 12:43:04 GMT -8
Here is the official thread for OEM inquiries, please keep it on point. Obviously there will be some leeway, but off topic content will be deleted.
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Nov 9, 2015 15:29:10 GMT -8
I'll kick this off with a clear case of FEIKO. These are pretty common fake dials. I've got it next to a real one (which is replacing the fake one incidentally), which makes it really obvious where the issues are. The indices aren't even straight on the fake one....how much worse can it get? SEIKO logo is wrong, 5 logo is wrong. Terrible. No Suwa or Daini symbol (all of them had these at this stage). The rest of the watch is legit. The original dial was probably just dead from water intrusion and a helpful Indian fellow replaced it with this.
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ausimax
Timekeeper
Kogan, Qld, Australia
Posts: 937
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Post by ausimax on Nov 9, 2015 17:46:40 GMT -8
I'll kick this off with a clear case of FEIKO. These are pretty common fake dials. I've got it next to a real one (which is replacing the fake one incidentally), which makes it really obvious where the issues are. The indices aren't even straight on the fake one....how much worse can it get? SEIKO logo is wrong, 5 logo is wrong. Terrible. No Suwa or Daini symbol (all of them had these at this stage). The rest of the watch is legit. The original dial was probably just dead from water intrusion and a helpful Indian fellow replaced it with this. I have a problem with definition here, if the watch is advertised as all original it is a Feiko, however if it is not, or is listed as aftermarket or refurbished dial what is the problem? About the same as if you get a smashed windscreen in your car, 90% chance it will be replaced with aftermarket glass - you still call your car a Ford, Holden or Toyota or whatever, not a fake, as Toyota Dealer remarked nobody gets a Toyota windscreen replacement they are too expensive. I see plenty of posts on this and other forums by members Modding watches with aftermarket dials and hands and everybody else praising them for a job well done! Not screaming Feiko! I am not trying to flame anyone or start an argument I am just trying to get a definition as to what constitutes a "Feiko" I sort of expect that any watch out of India will have refurbished parts, dials especially, only wish I could source good refurbished dials for the price they can, at present it is cheaper for me to purchase a working Seiko from India with a good dial than it is to get a wreck from Ramon to rebuild - only problem what fun is it to restore an already restored watch? Max
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2015 19:34:49 GMT -8
I'll kick this off with a clear case of FEIKO. These are pretty common fake dials. I've got it next to a real one (which is replacing the fake one incidentally), which makes it really obvious where the issues are. The indices aren't even straight on the fake one....how much worse can it get? SEIKO logo is wrong, 5 logo is wrong. Terrible. No Suwa or Daini symbol (all of them had these at this stage). The rest of the watch is legit. The original dial was probably just dead from water intrusion and a helpful Indian fellow replaced it with this. I have a problem with definition here, if the watch is advertised as all original it is a Feiko, however if it is not, or is listed as aftermarket or refurbished dial what is the problem? About the same as if you get a smashed windscreen in your car, 90% chance it will be replaced with aftermarket glass - you still call your car a Ford, Holden or Toyota or whatever, not a fake, as Toyota Dealer remarked nobody gets a Toyota windscreen replacement they are too expensive. I see plenty of posts on this and other forums by members Modding watches with aftermarket dials and hands and everybody else praising them for a job well done! Not screaming Feiko! I am not trying to flame anyone or start an argument I am just trying to get a definition as to what constitutes a "Feiko" I sort of expect that any watch out of India will have refurbished parts, dials especially, only wish I could source good refurbished dials for the price they can, at present it is cheaper for me to purchase a working Seiko from India with a good dial than it is to get a wreck from Ramon to rebuild - only problem what fun is it to restore an already restored watch? Max Good questions Max! There are several levels between OEM(original equipment manufacturer) and AM(after market). Other than the original parts supplied by Seiko(or name your favourite watch company), there are lots of parts that are produced which try to faithfully reproduce the original look and function. If the original parts are not longer in production then they are simply after market bits made to various levels of quality. If the original parts are still available/in production then these after market bits are clearly fake/counterfeit. So, you can watches with faithfully reproduced AM parts that are perfectly legitimate...just not original. Then you can have watches with parts that the original manufacturer never made(read Loy here). Those are unquestionably fake parts. The dial in this Indian compilation qualifies as an abject fake since Seiko never, ever made a dial like that. It's not AM, it's not a redial; it's a FAKE. If you mod a watch with AM parts from yobokies, Dagaz or any of the other quality AM parts makers and use them on your watch, there is nothing illegal or wrong with that...UNLESS you do not disclose such when attempting to sell the item. That's when the shite hits the fan
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2015 19:44:08 GMT -8
This was my introduction to collecting vintage Seikos... Mind you this was a gift and cost me nothing so no foul, no harm. The obvious signs or on the outside but the real deal is inside... This is actually a 25 jewel AS1916 movement; arguably as good as the 6119 that should have been in it. Note the machining that removed the Seiko text on the rotor. How many red flags can you guys/gals spot? Ignore the bent Seiko logo; I messed that up with a Q-tip OMG, I just got the irony of it all... ' A Seiko 6119' has exactly the same letters and numbers as ' AS1916'
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cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,211
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Post by cd_god on Nov 9, 2015 20:02:50 GMT -8
I think we need to get some baseline terms for people to use.
Feiko is 100% fake nothing to do with Seiko ( or citizen ro whatever brand they are trying to pass it off as)
Then there are "improperly restored" watches with AM parts usually witht he Seiko name (usually on the dial) using "some" genuine Seiko parts such as movements which may not be the correct caliber for the watch case / style in question but "advertised" as all original.
Then there are custom / MOD'd watches which have also been assembled with made by Seiko parts from chopped up watches but may also be combined with custom non Seiko forgered logo dials and unique or "similar" to OEM hands.
Then there are "cobbled together" pieces which use a mix and match of genuine Seiko parts but not in the same combination that it left the factory. The dial may be from one colored model but the chapter is from another colored model and the bezel insert is from a 3rd model. I guess you could call some "custom" unless the seller is advertising the watch as all original.
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Nov 9, 2015 20:32:13 GMT -8
Hi Max, I agree with you on the definition and in this case the watch was advertised as all original, and this is the kind of situation that the term FEIKO applies to. The customer did not know the piece has a poor aftermarket dial until I told him. The key here is the representation of the watch. In the case of the windscreens, the reproduction part is identical fit and finish to the original part. I'd say it's probably not the best analogy to watch parts because in this case while the fit is correct the finish is in no way an accurate representation of the original part. The mods, for the most part are not to my taste, but again I think the analogy isn't entirely applicable because the label FEIKO comes from the misrepresentation of the watch in a sale context or a straight-up counterfeit watch, not from the appearance of an enthusiast modded watch. We have had a number of posts here previously that show a clearly modded diver (as in everyone knew where the dial/hands came from), being represented as "100% ORIGINAL" on our favourite auction site. This would clearly fall into the definition of a FEIKO due to the representation. My advice to anyone is to not spend more than you're prepared to lose on this hobby and if you take that approach to it, you'll be fine! But where we get up in arms about the FEIKO thing is where someone has spent multiple hundreds of dollars on a piece that has been represented as original, that in fact is not. I'll borrow from our colleagues at the other SEIKO forum and use this as an example of how the FEIKO thing can go bad. The users involved have been in the hobby for ages and still got duped, meaning his investment is now worth zero. www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/27636-heads-up-fake-6138-7000-galore-2.htmlI'll kick this off with a clear case of FEIKO. These are pretty common fake dials. I've got it next to a real one (which is replacing the fake one incidentally), which makes it really obvious where the issues are. The indices aren't even straight on the fake one....how much worse can it get? SEIKO logo is wrong, 5 logo is wrong. Terrible. No Suwa or Daini symbol (all of them had these at this stage). The rest of the watch is legit. The original dial was probably just dead from water intrusion and a helpful Indian fellow replaced it with this. I have a problem with definition here, if the watch is advertised as all original it is a Feiko, however if it is not, or is listed as aftermarket or refurbished dial what is the problem? About the same as if you get a smashed windscreen in your car, 90% chance it will be replaced with aftermarket glass - you still call your car a Ford, Holden or Toyota or whatever, not a fake, as Toyota Dealer remarked nobody gets a Toyota windscreen replacement they are too expensive. I see plenty of posts on this and other forums by members Modding watches with aftermarket dials and hands and everybody else praising them for a job well done! Not screaming Feiko! I am not trying to flame anyone or start an argument I am just trying to get a definition as to what constitutes a "Feiko" I sort of expect that any watch out of India will have refurbished parts, dials especially, only wish I could source good refurbished dials for the price they can, at present it is cheaper for me to purchase a working Seiko from India with a good dial than it is to get a wreck from Ramon to rebuild - only problem what fun is it to restore an already restored watch? Max
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Nov 9, 2015 20:56:02 GMT -8
OK so here's another example. Pick the fake here (hint, it's made harder because I removed the fake green lume and lumed it to look like it's real) - It's one on the left. It was so good I didn't know until I opened the watch and the dial fell out onto my desk in multiple pieces. I then noted it was missing the production date code and was of different construction to an OEM dial. This watch was sold as original and clearly isn't. On the inside, the movement ring was missing and had been replaced with one from another watch, the additional space taken up with some scrap plastic. It leads me to believe this watch was made from a bunch of leftover parts from various other watches. This is the sort of stuff we want to "out" so that other humans are not misled and deceived.
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ausimax
Timekeeper
Kogan, Qld, Australia
Posts: 937
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Post by ausimax on Nov 10, 2015 2:43:06 GMT -8
Thanks to all for your replies and clarification which I think is important.
I totally agree about sellers listing "all original" watches that are not, most are models that command quite high prices and I sure wouldn't like to get stung, afraid I don't know enough about them to consider purchasing either Seiko Chronos or Divers both seem to be the province of the sharks and a trap for the unwary, I see them shown on the forum and think that looks OK - till those in the know start listing the faults and prove to me just how little I know.
Max
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2015 12:13:13 GMT -8
Hi Max, I agree with you on the definition and in this case the watch was advertised as all original, and this is the kind of situation that the term FEIKO applies to. The customer did not know the piece has a poor aftermarket dial until I told him. The key here is the representation of the watch. In the case of the windscreens, the reproduction part is identical fit and finish to the original part. I'd say it's probably not the best analogy to watch parts because in this case while the fit is correct the finish is in no way an accurate representation of the original part. The mods, for the most part are not to my taste, but again I think the analogy isn't entirely applicable because the label FEIKO comes from the misrepresentation of the watch in a sale context or a straight-up counterfeit watch, not from the appearance of an enthusiast modded watch. We have had a number of posts here previously that show a clearly modded diver (as in everyone knew where the dial/hands came from), being represented as "100% ORIGINAL" on our favourite auction site. This would clearly fall into the definition of a FEIKO due to the representation. My advice to anyone is to not spend more than you're prepared to lose on this hobby and if you take that approach to it, you'll be fine! But where we get up in arms about the FEIKO thing is where someone has spent multiple hundreds of dollars on a piece that has been represented as original, that in fact is not. I'll borrow from our colleagues at the other SEIKO forum and use this as an example of how the FEIKO thing can go bad. The users involved have been in the hobby for ages and still got duped, meaning his investment is now worth zero. www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/27636-heads-up-fake-6138-7000-galore-2.htmlI have a problem with definition here, if the watch is advertised as all original it is a Feiko, however if it is not, or is listed as aftermarket or refurbished dial what is the problem? About the same as if you get a smashed windscreen in your car, 90% chance it will be replaced with aftermarket glass - you still call your car a Ford, Holden or Toyota or whatever, not a fake, as Toyota Dealer remarked nobody gets a Toyota windscreen replacement they are too expensive. I see plenty of posts on this and other forums by members Modding watches with aftermarket dials and hands and everybody else praising them for a job well done! Not screaming Feiko! I am not trying to flame anyone or start an argument I am just trying to get a definition as to what constitutes a "Feiko" I sort of expect that any watch out of India will have refurbished parts, dials especially, only wish I could source good refurbished dials for the price they can, at present it is cheaper for me to purchase a working Seiko from India with a good dial than it is to get a wreck from Ramon to rebuild - only problem what fun is it to restore an already restored watch? Max The windscreen thing is not a good fit since most of the auto makers source windscreens from the same manufacturers as the replacement people get them. There is not a lot of 'inhouse' stuff in the automotive world any more...unless it is a hand made machine.
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cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,211
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Post by cd_god on Nov 11, 2015 17:34:42 GMT -8
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Post by Tegger on Nov 11, 2015 17:56:50 GMT -8
The dial says it's a 7548 AND it says it's an automatic. That's a whopper. The creator of that watch is obviously counting on buyers to either not notice, or to not know the difference.
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ausimax
Timekeeper
Kogan, Qld, Australia
Posts: 937
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Post by ausimax on Nov 11, 2015 19:16:17 GMT -8
The dial says it's a 7548 AND it says it's an automatic. That's a whopper. The creator of that watch is obviously counting on buyers to either not notice, or to not know the difference. Even managed to give it two different serial numbers! I wonder which one you would receive were you to buy? Max
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
Posts: 408
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Post by west.au on Nov 12, 2015 4:38:53 GMT -8
Hi Max, I agree with you on the definition and in this case the watch was advertised as all original, and this is the kind of situation that the term FEIKO applies to. The customer did not know the piece has a poor aftermarket dial until I told him. The key here is the representation of the watch. In the case of the windscreens, the reproduction part is identical fit and finish to the original part. I'd say it's probably not the best analogy to watch parts because in this case while the fit is correct the finish is in no way an accurate representation of the original part. The mods, for the most part are not to my taste, but again I think the analogy isn't entirely applicable because the label FEIKO comes from the misrepresentation of the watch in a sale context or a straight-up counterfeit watch, not from the appearance of an enthusiast modded watch. We have had a number of posts here previously that show a clearly modded diver (as in everyone knew where the dial/hands came from), being represented as "100% ORIGINAL" on our favourite auction site. This would clearly fall into the definition of a FEIKO due to the representation. My advice to anyone is to not spend more than you're prepared to lose on this hobby and if you take that approach to it, you'll be fine! But where we get up in arms about the FEIKO thing is where someone has spent multiple hundreds of dollars on a piece that has been represented as original, that in fact is not. I'll borrow from our colleagues at the other SEIKO forum and use this as an example of how the FEIKO thing can go bad. The users involved have been in the hobby for ages and still got duped, meaning his investment is now worth zero. www.thewatchsite.com/21-japanese-watch-discussion-forum/27636-heads-up-fake-6138-7000-galore-2.htmlWhilst I am cautious about 'naming & shaming' (although I think this dealer has a teflon hide)... I hope that this post is seen as on topic, I also hope that it provides/provokes a bit of honest debate and not 'quick opinions' Adrian's comments in his first paragraph 'watch was advertised as all original, and this is the kind of situation that the term FEIKO applies to' ... 'The key here is the representation of the watch'. Reminded me of a dealer I have been observing! (and I probably am not alone here) So a few of you may have guessed - Sophon ... The first problem I have is that whilst he obviously deals in 'some volume of watches from different makers' and is open about selling AM parts (mainly Seiko), and re-furbishing watches, he is very lax with letting you know just how much of the watch is original and how much are his AM parts. But that issue aside. The second problem (and I think Feiko).... Have you followed/noticed just how many watches of 'a certain type' he turns over? i.e the 'pepsi' pogue? A bit of quick research & math uncovers the following: for sale = 7, sold = 20 (in the past 3 months), and if my memory serves me correctly this is an ongoing pattern! (how long I don't know) But all of them are like new ... brushed & polished cases (sure could be re-finished but i think new), clean & tidy dials, unmarked bezels ... etc ... all he admits to is a 'replacement bracelet' check out this typical listing: www.ebay.com.au/itm/Seiko-Chrono-Pepsi-Yellow-dial-6139-Mint-6139-6002-Gents-5-/141802956095?hash=item21041d653f:g:MsIAAOSwhcJWII2eAnd all 27 listings are similar... Notice the dial (and he has different dials on them... so not all are same) ... from what I understand (and I am not a pogue follower) it should read "water 70m resist" at 9 0'clock, and have a "2 line" header ... HHMMM ... Houston I think we have a problem! I think he is into small batch manufacturing ... I think he has used a watch with a great story attached that has made it eminently desirable with broad appeal, and copied it... for all the dollars he can make
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cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,211
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Post by cd_god on Nov 12, 2015 8:17:47 GMT -8
Sophon has been a butcher hack since the earliest days of Ebay. His feedback was so bad or Ebay locked his account many years ago that he had to change his name to Sophon_1 Notice how there are no caseback shots with the serial number in any of the auctions. My guess is they all have the same serial number and are complete forgeries. Any why no movement shots? My guess on that one is because they are all green and pitted and cheesed up (if they are even really a Seiko movement and not some Chinese chrono movement) which would be a dead giveaway of the whole fake package.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Nov 12, 2015 9:33:24 GMT -8
I was hoping that this would be a thread where folks who are curious about a particular item, could come to get advice. I'm not wanting it to be an ebay seller shaming page. Nor do I really want it to be a thread, where we post pics and specs of blatantly obvious Feikos. We created it to be more of a resource of sorts, if that makes sense. I know it'll take a bit to get it dialed in, but during that process, certain content will end up being moved or deleted.
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cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,211
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Post by cd_god on Nov 12, 2015 11:47:07 GMT -8
I was hoping that this would be a thread where folks who are curious about a particular item, could come to get advice. I'm not wanting it to be an ebay seller shaming page. Nor do I really want it to be a thread, where we post pics and specs of blatantly obvious Feikos. We created it to be more of a resource of sorts, if that makes sense. I know it'll take a bit to get it dialed in, but during that process, certain content will end up being moved or deleted. How about a "reference of known Feikos" so that someone could compare serial numbers and case shapes etc to.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 19:33:15 GMT -8
I was hoping that this would be a thread where folks who are curious about a particular item, could come to get advice. I'm not wanting it to be an ebay seller shaming page. Nor do I really want it to be a thread, where we post pics and specs of blatantly obvious Feikos. We created it to be more of a resource of sorts, if that makes sense. I know it'll take a bit to get it dialed in, but during that process, certain content will end up being moved or deleted. Then I have no idea what you intend this thread to be or have in it
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cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,211
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Post by cd_god on Nov 12, 2015 19:50:37 GMT -8
OK. Let this serve as a lesson in buying on Ebay and the douchebaggeryness that goes on there. The watch. The Ebay auction www.ebay.com/itm/262141924678?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D262141924678%26_rdc%3D1Vintage Seiko 6105-8110 Runs--For parts or repair!!! Vintage Seiko 6105-8110, watch runs, keeps time for a while then stops. Head only no band. For parts or repair. I do not know if the dial, hands and bezel insert are original? Please feel free to ask any questions!! The other listing on TOF. www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/194618-fs-seiko-6105-8110-375-a.html FS Seiko 6105-8110--$375 For sale is a Seiko 6105-8110. Aftermarket dial and hands and bezel insert. Runs and keeps time, date and time set, but stops occasionally. Might be a stem issue? Head only. Asking $375 shipped conus. Please feel free to ask any questions. This is the same shitty crooked business dealing tricks my boss pulls trying to dump lemon cars he buys by dumping them at the auto auction without disclosing the known issues. Buyer beware when dealing with sellers like this.
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west.au
Timekeeper
Steve
Posts: 408
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Post by west.au on Nov 13, 2015 1:08:28 GMT -8
I was hoping that this would be a thread where folks who are curious about a particular item, could come to get advice. I'm not wanting it to be an ebay seller shaming page. Nor do I really want it to be a thread, where we post pics and specs of blatantly obvious Feikos. We created it to be more of a resource of sorts, if that makes sense. I know it'll take a bit to get it dialed in, but during that process, certain content will end up being moved or deleted. Hi Tim, I agree with your intent, hence I was cautious about naming a seller ... as a 'shaming' thread can rapidly become a 'flaming' thread, and that is the reason why I asked for honest debate. What I was attempting to do was to alert the members of the forum that I have noticed a 'trend' that appears to be the blatant manufacture of a particular type of watch that is very close to the hearts of many collectors. I think that your idea of potentially moving this information ... is a good one, is it feasible to have another moderated sticky??? whereby a member may post information on the manufacture and distribution/selling of what can be seen a as feiko's (so it's about the feiko and NOT the person/dealer offering it for sale) One of the post's that was the recent genesis of this sticky was the bullheads with the '6N3147' serial number. I also appreciate that pre-dating my interest in collecting seiko's there were the 6138-7000's with the '4D8634' serial number, and there maybe others that I am not aware of. So, on this basis I know that as a 'newer' collector I would have liked to be able to browse a thread that contained an honest appraisal of some of the feiko's and what are the indicators that things aren't always as they seem. Anyway I reckon two threads could probably be invaluable, one that as you suggested was clearly about discussion and advice about a particular watch (sort of horology 101 for a watch), and a second that could be about known and obvious feiko's with honest and on-point discussion of what are the issues noted and why a watch can ring the 'proverbial' alarm bell Steve
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