tritto
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Post by tritto on May 18, 2016 18:00:39 GMT -8
I just noticed an interesting discrepancy in 6105 800x proof/resist markings. This June 1970 6105 8000 (probably an Australian or Asian delivered watch) has a proof caseback (with resist dial). However, this 6105 8009 (US market) caseback was manufactured 13 months earlier in May 1969 and has a resist caseback (also resist dial). I knew that the move from resist to proof was the result of a US court case and the new resist notation therefore probably occurred first in US market variants but it's interesting to see that Seiko was still manufacturing the proof casebacks for the rest of the world model for at least 13 months after the US example. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of either watch (although the 8009 on eBay at the moment has incorrect hands), I'm just surprised.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on May 18, 2016 19:11:06 GMT -8
Out of interest I scanned the current and completed listings for 8000/9s on eBay - last three months and ship worldwide or to Australia. Excluding those with AM dials, results (including the above) were: 8009 - 3 X Resist (dial)/Resist (caseback) with serials btw 95 and 0N 8000 - 8 X Proof/Proof with serials btw 72 and 03 8000 - 2 X Resist/Proof. One is 06 (above and the latest proof caseback) and the other 87 (obviously a later dial fitted as this proceeds even the 8009 resists). Interesting to note that I didn't see any proof dial or caseback 8009s.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on May 18, 2016 20:54:37 GMT -8
Answering my own queries here. Some googling of old threads on SCWF reveals the latest known (at the time) examples of 6105 8000s date to July 1970 and had resist dials and proof casebacks. They were also 6015Bs (some hacking, some missing the hacking lever). Seems the proof casebacks may have continued in use for ROW units until the end of their production. Any resist/resist 8000s out there?
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Post by estrickland on May 18, 2016 21:06:38 GMT -8
Answering my own queries here. Some googling of old threads on SCWF reveals the latest known (at the time) examples of 6105 8000s date to July 1970 and had resist dials and proof casebacks. They were also 6015Bs (some hacking, some missing the hacking lever). Seems the proof casebacks may have continued in use for ROW units until the end of their production. Any resist/resist 8000s out there? I've seen resist/resist -8000s, but not in good enough condition to add to the collection. My -8000 is from June 1970 and is proof/proof and hacking.
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Post by seikosthlm on May 19, 2016 5:06:21 GMT -8
Thanks for the stats. Seems like Seiko wanted to use their stock of proof casebacks and could obviously not use them in the US market. Dont think they produced any more after makimg the "decision" to move to resist. In that case they would have kept producing proof dials to IMO.
Most if not all 6105-8000 from March 1970 seem to have resist dial and proof back (6105b movement) I had 2 sonfar and saw several. It oes seem like they ran out of proof backs in June 70 but it also seems like they might have picked and choose what countries to send the proof /resist transitionals to. Do you still have the pics? Curious on what sweepers are used on the various you have studied.
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cobrajet25
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Post by cobrajet25 on May 19, 2016 5:13:58 GMT -8
Some weird stuff happened in mid-to-late 1970. And not just with the 6105s. Hibeat and I were discussing this phenomenon with regard to 6139s just a couple days ago (towards the end of the thread)... Homage to CD God
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Post by seikosthlm on May 29, 2016 9:11:31 GMT -8
This one should amuse some of you. A 6105-8000 resist/ proof with 6105b movement. Probably from march 1970 but check out the first digit in the serial. its from march 197december Attachments:
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on May 29, 2016 13:50:36 GMT -8
This one should amuse some of you. A 6105-8000 resist/ proof with 6105b movement. Probably from march 1970 but check out the first digit in the serial. its from march 197december OK so is this a Feiko case back or a genuine but oddball ??
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Rod
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Post by Rod on May 29, 2016 14:34:51 GMT -8
This one should amuse some of you. A 6105-8000 resist/ proof with 6105b movement. Probably from march 1970 but check out the first digit in the serial. its from march 197december Are the first numerals D3 or 03? It looks strange, almost like it's been enhanced with Photoshop and that has distorted the first numeral. :-/
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Post by seikosthlm on May 29, 2016 14:40:52 GMT -8
This one should amuse some of you. A 6105-8000 resist/ proof with 6105b movement. Probably from march 1970 but check out the first digit in the serial. its from march 197december Are the first numerals D3 or 03? It looks strange, almost like it's been enhanced with Photoshop and that has distorted the first numeral. :-/ D3
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Rod
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Post by Rod on May 29, 2016 15:00:30 GMT -8
I think we have to remember that Japan was changing with the growing demand from the world market. Things were very different in the mid/late 1960's. Japan had just hosted the Olympics (1964) and they were getting ready for the 1970 world fair in Osaka. The legal wangling with the "Water Proof V Water Resistant" in the US, Japan had started to adopt ISO's and replace many of their own standards within these ISO's, big changes for a small country.
In 1968 the motorcycling industry adopted the ISO (basically the DINN) for fasteners and dropped the JIS (Japanese industrial standard) So naturally other big export industries followed suit, or miss out on the export markets that have already adopted the ISO's or were in the process of doing so.
ISO's although created after WWII didn't really get a foot hold until the early 1960's as some of the big players (mainly USSR) were reluctant to change, as these changes were to cost big $$, e.g. converting freight ships to take a different size shipping container.
Like any industry Seiko only had to comply with the US legal issue and could still use up the remainder of its stock of "proof" parts as part of the change over to the newly accepted ISO, this is why we see the "proof" marking used up through 1970's. It's worth remembering that the compliance to an ISO was, and still is voluntary by any manufacture. But the sale of items not meeting an ISO are limited to countries that don't comply/require and ISO.
I've always wondered if the Japanese use the Swiss "watch metric" for fasteners etc. Does anyone know?
Anyway just my ramblings for the day
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on May 29, 2016 16:57:12 GMT -8
Yeah they use that standard. You can mix and match screws. If you buy screw bags they don't make them Swiss/Japanese styles, they are a "universal" fit. You often see flat topped Swiss screws subbed for round topped Japanese screws. To add to that, The earlier movements, e.g. 6206 and earlier, use Swiss style flat head screws. The switch seems to have happened around the time the 61/4006/56 series came out (68ish). I believe the Japanese probably started adopting metric for everything around the time of the occupation, but towards the end. I have some occupation time made binoculars and they are metric. Also, as far as I can remember, even the oldest Datsun's and Toyota's (late 60's to early 70's) were metric. My brother had several Datsun 1600's (he's 9 years younger than me though), which totally baffled me as to why he'd want one (I clearly remember a double digit %age of the body that was pure rust), but they were standard metric. I guess another point to mention was the occupation era would have been the last stand of the Imperial calendar. Although, most service marks I see inside cases that came from Japan, even up to the 90's, were denoted in Imperial dates. I think we have to remember that Japan was changing with the growing demand from the world market. Things were very different in the mid/late 1960's. Japan had just hosted the Olympics (1964) and they were getting ready for the 1970 world fair in Osaka. The legal wangling with the "Water Proof V Water Resistant" in the US, Japan had started to adopt ISO's and replace many of their own standards within these ISO's, big changes for a small country. In 1968 the motorcycling industry adopted the ISO (basically the DINN) for fasteners and dropped the JIS (Japanese industrial standard) So naturally other big export industries followed suit, or miss out on the export markets that have already adopted the ISO's or were in the process of doing so. ISO's although created after WWII didn't really get a foot hold until the early 1960's as some of the big players (mainly USSR) were reluctant to change, as these changes were to cost big $$, e.g. converting freight ships to take a different size shipping container. Like any industry Seiko only had to comply with the US legal issue and could still use up the remainder of its stock of "proof" parts as part of the change over to the newly accepted ISO, this is why we see the "proof" marking used up through 1970's. It's worth remembering that the compliance to an ISO was, and still is voluntary by any manufacture. But the sale of items not meeting an ISO are limited to countries that don't comply/require and ISO. I've always wondered if the Japanese use the Swiss "watch metric" for fasteners etc. Does anyone know? Anyway just my ramblings for the day
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Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,213
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Post by Rod on May 29, 2016 17:56:46 GMT -8
Yeah they use that standard. You can mix and match screws. If you buy screw bags they don't make them Swiss/Japanese styles, they are a "universal" fit. You often see flat topped Swiss screws subbed for round topped Japanese screws. To add to that, The earlier movements, e.g. 6206 and earlier, use Swiss style flat head screws. The switch seems to have happened around the time the 61/4006/56 series came out (68ish). I believe the Japanese probably started adopting metric for everything around the time of the occupation, but towards the end. I have some occupation time made binoculars and they are metric. Also, as far as I can remember, even the oldest Datsun's and Toyota's (late 60's to early 70's) were metric. My brother had several Datsun 1600's (he's 9 years younger than me though), which totally baffled me as to why he'd want one (I clearly remember a double digit %age of the body that was pure rust), but they were standard metric. I guess another point to mention was the occupation era would have been the last stand of the Imperial calendar. Although, most service marks I see inside cases that came from Japan, even up to the 90's, were denoted in Imperial dates. I think we have to remember that Japan was changing with the growing demand from the world market. Things were very different in the mid/late 1960's. Japan had just hosted the Olympics (1964) and they were getting ready for the 1970 world fair in Osaka. The legal wangling with the "Water Proof V Water Resistant" in the US, Japan had started to adopt ISO's and replace many of their own standards within these ISO's, big changes for a small country. In 1968 the motorcycling industry adopted the ISO (basically the DINN) for fasteners and dropped the JIS (Japanese industrial standard) So naturally other big export industries followed suit, or miss out on the export markets that have already adopted the ISO's or were in the process of doing so. ISO's although created after WWII didn't really get a foot hold until the early 1960's as some of the big players (mainly USSR) were reluctant to change, as these changes were to cost big $$, e.g. converting freight ships to take a different size shipping container. Like any industry Seiko only had to comply with the US legal issue and could still use up the remainder of its stock of "proof" parts as part of the change over to the newly accepted ISO, this is why we see the "proof" marking used up through 1970's. It's worth remembering that the compliance to an ISO was, and still is voluntary by any manufacture. But the sale of items not meeting an ISO are limited to countries that don't comply/require and ISO. I've always wondered if the Japanese use the Swiss "watch metric" for fasteners etc. Does anyone know? Anyway just my ramblings for the day We (general term) often think that anything that uses a hexadecimal counting system is metric, the Japanese used their own hexadecimal system for several thousand years and created standards for these. The standard (JIS) used pre 1968-70, is very close to the common ISO metric system that most of the world uses today and it also uses the same style for displaying the various sizes of nut/bolts etc, but is their own standard. So an 10mm ISO spanner will fit an #10 JIS bolt but the TPI is different. Always fun looking back and learning.
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ausimax
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Kogan, Qld, Australia
Posts: 937
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Post by ausimax on May 29, 2016 18:03:30 GMT -8
"You often see flat topped Swiss screws subbed for round topped Japanese screws. To add to that, The earlier movements, e.g. 6206 and earlier, use Swiss style flat head screws. The switch seems to have happened around the time the 61/4006/56 series came out (68ish)."
I can't see that was a great leap forward, the round headed screws are a pain with a shallow driver slot and rounded corners, like the old cross head self tappers, trying to keep the driver in the slot and not skating off to mar the finish of the bridge, not Seiko's greatest innovation.
Max
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Post by seikosthlm on May 29, 2016 20:01:36 GMT -8
This one should amuse some of you. A 6105-8000 resist/ proof with 6105b movement. Probably from march 1970 but check out the first digit in the serial. its from march 197december OK so is this a Feiko case back or a genuine but oddball ?? Looks like a legit oddball to me. My best guess is that someone took the wrong stamp.
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Post by oscillon on Feb 22, 2021 14:37:06 GMT -8
Hey Guys,
I realize this is an old thread and perhaps some of the contributors aren't here anymore. However, I just picked up an "oddball" that I wanted to do a bit of sleuthing on.
It's a June 1970 6105-8000 Proof case back but has a 8009 marked Resist Dial. Long sweep and all the "patina" matches. To add to the oddity, the dial is not stamped and it has a 6105b hacking movement.
I can think of two scenarios:
1. It's this way because its oddly transitional - late 1970 stamped proof back with resist dial.
2. Has a replacement dial but managed to keep the original hand(s) - the sweep at least?
What do you think? Has anyone else experienced this more recently?
Dan
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Feb 22, 2021 17:20:19 GMT -8
Hey Guys, I realize this is an old thread and perhaps some of the contributors aren't here anymore. However, I just picked up an "oddball" that I wanted to do a bit of sleuthing on. It's a June 1970 6105-8000 Proof case back but has a 8009 marked Resist Dial. Long sweep and all the "patina" matches. To add to the oddity, the dial is not stamped and it has a 6138b hacking movement. I can think of two scenarios: 1. It's this way because its oddly transitional - late 1970 stamped proof back with resist dial. 2. Has a replacement dial but managed to keep the original hand(s) - the sweep at least? What do you think? Has anyone else experienced this more recently? Dan The dial code is properly 6105-8009. How could a 6138 movement be stuffed in there -impossible! Pics or it doesn't exist (not really it's an old saying).
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Post by oscillon on Feb 22, 2021 17:22:13 GMT -8
Hey Guys, I realize this is an old thread and perhaps some of the contributors aren't here anymore. However, I just picked up an "oddball" that I wanted to do a bit of sleuthing on. It's a June 1970 6105-8000 Proof case back but has a 8009 marked Resist Dial. Long sweep and all the "patina" matches. To add to the oddity, the dial is not stamped and it has a 6138b hacking movement. I can think of two scenarios: 1. It's this way because its oddly transitional - late 1970 stamped proof back with resist dial. 2. Has a replacement dial but managed to keep the original hand(s) - the sweep at least? What do you think? Has anyone else experienced this more recently? Dan The dial code is properly 6105-8009. How could a 6138 movement be stuffed in there -impossible! Pics or it doesn't exist (not really it's an old saying). Sorry. 6105b hacking movement
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Fergus
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Post by Fergus on Feb 22, 2021 23:05:46 GMT -8
My all original one owner from new 6105-8000, 6105B, 1970 proof back, resist dial has a 6105-8009T dial
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 2:50:15 GMT -8
I managed to find a NOS 6105-8000 a couple of years ago. My favourite Seiko diver. I think it's a December 69 but I'd have to go check. It's proof/proof.
T
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