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Post by hamburgers on May 12, 2019 7:05:30 GMT -8
Hi, I just bought a non-working Seiko 4580 7020 from gumtree. I am intrigued by the lack of internet information about this watch. I gather it is based on a GS 4580 7010 VFA movement. Other than that, I have read that it was made for the Japanese Royal family. I would welcome any info about it. Thanks in advance.   Edit; PS, where could I even get this watch serviced and repaired in the world? |
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Post by doc013 on May 12, 2019 7:57:57 GMT -8
Imperial family symbol on it is cool.
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tritto
WS Benefactor
Posts: 5,869 
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Post by tritto on May 12, 2019 17:54:32 GMT -8
Well that's something new to me. Where are you located? I'm sure we can suggest someone to service it. Gumtree = UK or Australia?
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Post by hamburgers on May 13, 2019 5:11:26 GMT -8
Thank you for your messages.
It would be ideal if there was someone with the expertise in repairing GS models in the UK, where I am based.
Thanks in advance!
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Post by gerald on May 13, 2019 6:59:41 GMT -8
Ok cat is out of the bag on this now and lots of discussion going on behind the scenes between various collectors so I will comment publicly.
This is the find of the decade, if not the find of the last half century.
As per DM I can help with service in the UK. But please please please do not touch the dial or case!
Huge congratulations on the purchase, and if you do ever decide to pass it on, please do drop me a line!
Kind regards,
Gerald.
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arnaud
Can't Tell Time
Posts: 1
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Post by arnaud on May 13, 2019 7:00:50 GMT -8
Congrats for this amazing find ! People will try to buy it from you but you really should keep it, this is a real unicorn you found there ! As for servicing this watch, I'm part of the duo behind Ikigai Watches, we specialize in vintage Seiko, we service them with full access to Seiko Europe service parts, we adjust them within original specs and offer a one year warranty. We are based in Brussels. If you want to learn more about us, there's an interview on Fratello Watches: www.fratellowatches.com/ikigai-vintage-grand-seiko/And here's our website: www.ikigai-watches.com/ I can't send PM yet so I hope the admin team won't mind me speaking about this... Anyways, congrats on this stunning find ! Arnaud Edit: just saw you emailed us before, my bad ! Let's discuss this in private then  |
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Post by leffemonster on May 13, 2019 8:58:32 GMT -8
So, gerald , by your comment I’m guessing this must be something rather special? I’ll bet whoever off-loaded it on Gumtree had no idea! Edit: I knew I’d seen something before - wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/17326/akihitos-gs-any-more-infoEdit: just found the ad on Gumtree. I have no idea how the site works but hamburgers if you scored it for the price that’s visible in the completed ad then I’d like you to send me your picks for the lottery... |
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Post by hamburgers on May 13, 2019 11:22:34 GMT -8
Indeed it was advertised on Gumtree for £1, but I paid a lot more than that : )
Actually, I think for technical reasons, Gumtree forces the user to put in a value greater than 0, which is why he put a notional value knowing full well that interested buyers implicitly knew that they had to make an offer. What made the difference in my case is that I made the effort to travel to him to see the watch in person.
From what I could gather, the seller bought the Seiko 4580-7020 from a car boot sale (a yard sale) - he got a very good deal!!! He was a very nice guy actually. I wish him well, good health and more luck.
_____________
In the meantime, thank you all for showing interest in the watch.
I wonder if it would be possible for forum members with knowledge of this watch to pass some of this info on. I'd love to know more about its background - was it made only for the royal family, or made for the royal family to give as gifts to dignitaries, or both? Did Seiko ever sell any of the pieces to the public? So many questions!
Cheers!
Hamburger.
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Post by gerald on May 13, 2019 11:49:25 GMT -8
I'd love to know more about its background - was it made only for the royal family, or made for the royal family to give as gifts to dignitaries, or both? Did Seiko ever sell any of the pieces to the public? So many questions! Cheers! Hamburger. The only honest answer to these questions is “nobody knows.” Kind regards, Gerald. |
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rossr
WS Benefactor
Posts: 1,838
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Post by rossr on May 15, 2019 1:00:43 GMT -8
Absolutely amazing find. This is a watch that I thought would never be seen again (outside the three decade-old pics from a forum). To get it on Gumtree of all places. Previously from a car boot sale! That really is something.
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Post by hamburgers on May 15, 2019 7:19:55 GMT -8
rossrYou have seen another 4580 7020? Where was this and in what context? Do you have any more info about this watch?? Thank you so much!
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Post by Senpai on May 15, 2019 8:52:48 GMT -8
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rossr
WS Benefactor
Posts: 1,838
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Post by rossr on May 15, 2019 14:44:57 GMT -8
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Post by huangcjz on May 17, 2019 5:03:04 GMT -8
That was me! You guys have already covered pretty much everything I know about the watch though. |
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Post by hamburgers on May 22, 2019 11:46:38 GMT -8
What have I learnt about the watch so far? History of the Seiko 4580-7020
I messaged the Seiko Museum in Japan about the watch – they got back to me: These are the information we have on your watch:
・This watch with the Imperial seal flower on the dial is the watch Japanese emperor used to give.
・For the one with the caliber 4580, it seems that Showa Emperor went to Europe for the first time in 1971 and gave this watch to the people who took care of him during this trip.
・This watch with the Imperial seal flower was not for sale.
・We have no record of the numbers of this watch SEIKO produced.
・The caliber 4580 was also sold as the Seiko Astronomical Observatory chronometer model which means this caliber 4580 passed the Swiss Neuchâtel Chronometer. Therefore, very high accuracy.
As I am UK based, and obtained the watch in the UK, it makes sense that this watch was a gift from the Emporor Hirohito to a UK member of his entourage: www.nytimes.com/1971/02/24/archives/hirohito-plans-first-trip-abroad-by-reigning-japanese-emperor.htmlwww.nytimes.com/1971/10/06/archives/queen-and-quiet-crowds-greet-hirohito-in-london-queen-elizabeth.htmlThis puts the date of UK ownership of the watch between 5-8th October 1971. Anthony Kable has been kind enough to add his take on the communication from the museum. He pointed out that all 4580 movements that passed the Swiss Chrono. test are accounted for, so it is unlikely that 4580-7020s have a Swiss Chrono passed movement, it has the 4580 VFA, as per the photo I attached in my first post. Seiko manufacture of the 4580-7020
The 4580-7020 appears to be one of three models that use the 4580 calibre -GS 4580-7010, 4580-7020 and 4580-8020 [Swiss chrono passed]; this info has come from Anthony Kable who shared a Seiko parts datasheet, and is also available to see in an IG post from Gerald Donovan http://instagram.com/p/BxtX-JmgxlF Other known examples of the 4580-7020
This has been the research sticking point. Chronologically, the first internet post that speaks of the 4580-7020 was published in 2004 in an early watch forum. I contacted the poster and luckily he got back to me. He stated that he saw the watch on sale in a Japanese vintage watch website. He downloaded the image at that time and shared it with me. Interestingly, it is the same image posted by a user in another forum in 2014 who spoke of this watch being his ‘unicorn’ that he saw on sale in 2007 – could it be the same watch? This would mean that either the watch I have is one of two or three known examples. I have contacted the Japanese vintage watch seller – I am still waiting for a reply. Please note that more info may be found in Japanese websites, however I can’t read Japanese : ( Next steps-Figure out if the 4580-7020 was produced for the Emperor’s tour of Europe, as implied by the Seiko Museum -Clarify with the Seiko Museum about the 4580-7020 in relation to Swiss Chrono test passed movements -Learn more about the fascinating world of Seiko -Learn Japanese! -Send the watch off to a specialist for repair (I promise I will not allow the case or dial to be touched) Thanks to- IG Paul VintageSeiko for giving me tips on what to look out for in the watch when I was about to buy it - huangcjz who has helped me research the watch and given me a crash course in Seiko history and GS VFA movements -Anthony Kable who has offered his knowledge and experience to help narrow the research remit and help interpret various findings -Gerald Donovan who has offered his knowledge and experience in relation to GS VFA models -Seiko Museum for info |
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Post by gerald on May 22, 2019 12:27:10 GMT -8
Fascinating info - well done for finding out so much so quickly! With regards Neuchatel, there is no record of movement number 000113 being tested. To date, the only 4580 movements that are recorded at Neuchatel are those found in Astronomical Observatory Chronometers. Kind regards, Gerald. /edit There is another VFA reference - 4580-7000. Apologies - got my VFA’s mixed up! 4580-7000: http://instagram.com/p/BvEM54ag6oh |
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Post by hamburgers on Oct 12, 2019 4:43:36 GMT -8
Update
I had the watch serviced and repaired by Duncan (watchbloke). It runs beautifully at +1spd. The sweeping hand is very graceful. The 'grammar of design' is very clear and elegant. See attached photo. The service process uncovered an interesting fact: A ‘1.6’ was stamped on the back of the dial which apparently is a date code for June 1971 [thanks huangcjz for the info]. This probably means Seiko was commissioned by the Imperial Household to produce a very limited number of watches with the top of the line 4580 movement before their trip to Europe in September 1971, as per my earlier post in this thread. Timeline Watch assembly June 1971 -> Imperial visit to the UK 5-8th October 1971 -> Likely ownership by UK supporting entourage 8th October 1971 -> I purchased the watch April 2019 Design wise, it has been suggested that the watch was manufactured to emphasise the Imperial family over everything else. For example, the Imperial Chrysanthemum at a superior position of 12 o’clock and an unusually small print of Seiko at an inferior position of 6 o’clock. The only markings on the case back is Nippon Seiko (no serial, no movement number) – rather than Seiko Japan; again, this is probably to emphasise pride in Greater Japan and the concept allied to the Royal House. How many other known examples are there of the Seiko 4580-7020? I’ve spent a lot of time researching this. Including my example, there are multiple photos of one other that surfaced in 2004, with photos of this example published in 2004 and 2007. I'd like to thank user akable and huangcjz for their help in moving this watch project forward. 
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HiBeat
Global Moderator
SEIKO Iko Iko GDTRWS
Posts: 8,662
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Post by HiBeat on Oct 12, 2019 14:05:34 GMT -8
Super Congratulations words do not describe the specialness, but your posts and Gerald and Anthony have helped put more clarity to it.
I agree the Imperial symbol at 12 and the smaller SEIKO at 6 are indeed signs of deference and make it the most intriguing Seiko timepiece I have ever seen.
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scott
Can't Tell Time
Posts: 5
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Post by scott on May 14, 2020 12:29:54 GMT -8
Hi, I am a huge Seiko fan and collector and I was recently lucky enough to buy one of these watches and after doing some research realised how rare it was, does anyone know how many were actually made or have surfaced? Thanks in advanced. Scott   |
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Post by akable on May 14, 2020 14:03:50 GMT -8
That is a very interesting watch Scott, it is not a 4580-7020 so would be interesting to determine what it is.
Can you share a shot of the case back and a closer shot of the dial?
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