suntzu
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Post by suntzu on Aug 8, 2020 10:37:32 GMT -8
This was absolutely amazing to see. I saw Hodinkee's IG post hawking this auction. When I clicked on it, I was horrified to see the garbage the supposed respected Bonhams auction house was offering. A laundry list of fake vintage Seikos for auction.
Hodinkee has zero credibility for simply parroting Bonhams based on their name and not doing any research or due diligence into the auction offerings, as any WIS worth their salt, especially Seiko lovers, would see this farce in a nanosecond. Apparently Hodinkee lacks any vintage watch experts. Their IG post showing off this auction was hysterical. And sadly, many posters were celebrating this auction. Clueless. Like sheep following Hodinkee who followed Bonhams in a circle of ignorance and lazy journalism.
Pathetic all the way around and a total hit to Bonham's reputation. Someone's head has got to roll over there. Complete shock at their utter incompetence, unprofessionalism, and integrity.
Thankfully because of many WIS posters including myself on Hodinkee's IG account, enough stink was raised to have the auction cancelled. Of course my response was deleted  I didn't pull any punches. This is a total black eye to our hobby and could have hurt financially many unwitting bidders. How this was allowed to happen is baffling.
Definitely read up on this!
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rossr
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Post by rossr on Aug 9, 2020 2:47:17 GMT -8
It was a very odd mix offered in the auction. Who would have a seemingly genuine 6215 and 5718, yet have a bunch of stuff that was obviously non-genuine?
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Post by russtmurray on Aug 9, 2020 5:25:03 GMT -8
It will be interesting to see how this collection seeps into the market through alternate means.
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Post by nordlys on Aug 9, 2020 5:38:18 GMT -8
Not only will it be a hit to Bonham's reputation, but to the trustworthiness of auction houses in general.
I think one of the reasons the frankens were called out so quickly in this situation is due to the sheer size and expertise of the vintage Seiko community. One of the fantastic things about the Seiko community is there are "experts" on seemingly every reference in existence, who can pick out a re-dial simply by the shape of the tail on a lowercase "e". Basically, if you post a close-up of a franken Seiko on a popular Instagram page, it's going to get called out within an hour.
...I wonder how many auction houses have sold franken'd pieces from other brands without anyone being the wiser, simply because the auction house "experts" claimed it was legit and no-one bothered to question them. Outside of Rolex and maybe Patek, I cannot think of any enthusiast communities that have the breadth and depth of knowledge of the Seiko community. For many brands, there may only be a few true experts in the world, and most of these experts are likely working for the auction houses that are continually selling these pieces: Conflict of interest anyone?
As one of the commenters on the Fratello article mentioned, auction houses are, first and foremost, in this for the money. This obviously rushed and botched auction is a poignant reminder of that. One shouldn't let their guard down in any buying scenario, even if the piece is being sold by a famous auction house.
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Fergus
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Post by Fergus on Aug 9, 2020 6:35:13 GMT -8
It will not be the first or last time a recognised AH has intercoursed up.
Many years ago (1990's), during my Nikon collecting era, a rare Nikon Rangefiner (one of a handful) appeared at a London auction. It held centre fold in the auction catalogue with a pre sale estimate of £20k...meaning it would go for well over.
One week before the auction it went missing from their lock up....never to be seen again.
Taken to order...maybe.
nordlys...ebay needs to get one of those Seiko experts on their payroll...but think of all that lost revenue.
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Post by russtmurray on Aug 9, 2020 10:40:57 GMT -8
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Post by russtmurray on Aug 9, 2020 11:21:30 GMT -8
This was absolutely amazing to see. I saw Hodinkee's IG post hawking this auction. When I clicked on it, I was horrified to see the garbage the supposed respected Bonhams auction house was offering. A laundry list of fake vintage Seikos for auction.
Hodinkee has zero credibility for simply parroting Bonhams based on their name and not doing any research or due diligence into the auction offerings, as any WIS worth their salt, especially Seiko lovers, would see this farce in a nanosecond. Apparently Hodinkee lacks any vintage watch experts. Their IG post showing off this auction was hysterical. And sadly, many posters were celebrating this auction. Clueless. Like sheep following Hodinkee who followed Bonhams in a circle of ignorance and lazy journalism.
Pathetic all the way around and a total hit to Bonham's reputation. Someone's head has got to roll over there. Complete shock at their utter incompetence, unprofessionalism, and integrity.
Thankfully because of many WIS posters including myself on Hodinkee's IG account, enough stink was raised to have the auction cancelled. Of course my response was deleted I didn't pull any punches. This is a total black eye to our hobby and could have hurt financially many unwitting bidders. How this was allowed to happen is baffling.
Definitely read up on this!
Just my opinion and no matter one's thoughts of Hodinkee, I don't think they should be the target of such scorn. As best as I can tell, they simply reported about the upcoming auction and subsequently provided updates. No need to shoot the messenger IMHO. As you say, it's Bonhams that has some explaining to do. |
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jringo8769
WIS
The life we have is a Gift from God....live it to the fullest every day...Thank God for it...
Posts: 1,570
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Post by jringo8769 on Aug 9, 2020 11:30:08 GMT -8
Anyone who deals with them
Should tread very carefully
Shady for sure
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suntzu
Needs a Life!
Posts: 3,595
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Post by suntzu on Aug 9, 2020 13:45:52 GMT -8
This was absolutely amazing to see. I saw Hodinkee's IG post hawking this auction. When I clicked on it, I was horrified to see the garbage the supposed respected Bonhams auction house was offering. A laundry list of fake vintage Seikos for auction.
Hodinkee has zero credibility for simply parroting Bonhams based on their name and not doing any research or due diligence into the auction offerings, as any WIS worth their salt, especially Seiko lovers, would see this farce in a nanosecond. Apparently Hodinkee lacks any vintage watch experts. Their IG post showing off this auction was hysterical. And sadly, many posters were celebrating this auction. Clueless. Like sheep following Hodinkee who followed Bonhams in a circle of ignorance and lazy journalism.
Pathetic all the way around and a total hit to Bonham's reputation. Someone's head has got to roll over there. Complete shock at their utter incompetence, unprofessionalism, and integrity.
Thankfully because of many WIS posters including myself on Hodinkee's IG account, enough stink was raised to have the auction cancelled. Of course my response was deleted I didn't pull any punches. This is a total black eye to our hobby and could have hurt financially many unwitting bidders. How this was allowed to happen is baffling.
Definitely read up on this!
Just my opinion and no matter one's thoughts of Hodinkee, I don't think they should be the target of such scorn. As best as I can tell, they simply reported about the upcoming auction and subsequently provided updates. No need to shoot the messenger IMHO. As you say, it's Bonhams that has some explaining to do. Completely, respectfully disagree.
It's one thing to have a news feed that just lists upcoming watch auctions around the globe.
It's another thing to advertise it, talk it up, post pictures of the watches and label them as "highlights."
Any one of the watch enthusiasts there, especially the vintage ones, should know that Seikos are often faked and cobbled together, and the simplest investigation should have been done. It took me maybe 90 seconds of looking at the auction to see the train wreck.
Wouldn't you look through the auction listings first to see what is offered before you advertise it and show off "highlight?"
With the way people fawn over Hodinkee, they should bear some journalistic, if not maybe some sort of ethical responsibility for promoting this and potentially costing collectors financially.
It's called "due diligence" and any reporter worth their salt fact checks what they publish before rushing to print.
Hodinkee simply parroted Bonhams because of the name "Bonhams." And they took a hit for it in my opinion, and of course, along with the auction house.
It's like a dirty cop or prosecutor who fakes evidence or coerces confessions. Once one is caught, the whole ball of yarn unravels and calls into question their history of other arrests and prosecutions. The whole thing becomes rotten.
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suntzu
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Post by suntzu on Aug 9, 2020 14:22:57 GMT -8
Not so fast kids, it appears the auction has not been cancelled. Bonham Auction
We have temporarily removed the preview function in order to upload the condition reports accompanying each lot. We apologize to anyone who hasn’t been able to access the sale page.
Oh, is that the reason?  Are you going upload "Franken" to your "condition reports?"
Let's see how they save face and what has been conveniently removed.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on Aug 9, 2020 17:37:11 GMT -8
Given Hodinkee's editorial policy (gushing reviews of watches that soon turn up on their sale pages), I wouldn't be surprised if their initial reporting of the Bonhams auction was paid for.
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Post by russtmurray on Aug 9, 2020 18:53:58 GMT -8
Just my opinion and no matter one's thoughts of Hodinkee, I don't think they should be the target of such scorn. As best as I can tell, they simply reported about the upcoming auction and subsequently provided updates. No need to shoot the messenger IMHO. As you say, it's Bonhams that has some explaining to do. Completely, respectfully disagree. It's one thing to have a news feed that just lists upcoming watch auctions around the globe. It's another thing to advertise it, talk it up, post pictures of the watches and label them as "highlights." Any one of the watch enthusiasts there, especially the vintage ones, should know that Seikos are often faked and cobbled together, and the simplest investigation should have been done. It took me maybe 90 seconds of looking at the auction to see the train wreck.
Wouldn't you look through the auction listings first to see what is offered before you advertise it and show off "highlight?"
With the way people fawn over Hodinkee, they should bear some journalistic, if not maybe some sort of ethical responsibility for promoting this and potentially costing collectors financially. It's called "due diligence" and any reporter worth their salt fact checks what they publish before rushing to print. Hodinkee simply parroted Bonhams because of the name "Bonhams." And they took a hit for it in my opinion, and of course, along with the auction house. It's like a dirty cop or prosecutor who fakes evidence or coerces confessions. Once one is caught, the whole ball of yarn unravels and calls into question their history of other arrests and prosecutions. The whole thing becomes rotten.
Fair enough. Just reading the one announcement of the upcoming auction I got the impression the report was enthusiastic but not necessarily over hyped. But then again, I don't really follow Hodinkee anyway. Maybe it's the whole hipster vibe I feel whenever their name is brought up that turns me off. So if there were further posts from them in regards to the buildup, I didn't see them. Sure, maybe they're culpable by promoting the auction without performing due diligence over some or all of the watches but there were a lot of pieces. The responsibility rests with the collector to describe the watches accurately and Bonhams to validate the authenticity. Now if Hodinkee was called upon by Bonhams for vetting purposes then that's another matter. As far as I know it wasn't Hodkinee that faked evidence but sure as shit, guilt by association should give them pause. As I said, I'm not a fanboy even though I have one of these;  |
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Post by russtmurray on Aug 9, 2020 18:59:51 GMT -8
Not so fast kids, it appears the auction has not been cancelled. Bonham Auction
We have temporarily removed the preview function in order to upload the condition reports accompanying each lot. We apologize to anyone who hasn’t been able to access the sale page.
Oh, is that the reason? Are you going upload "Franken" to your "condition reports?"
Let's see how they save face and what has been conveniently removed.
Just noticed my previous link was no longer valid. Let's try again; www.hodinkee.com/articles/bonhams-seiko-only-making-waves-auction-not-canceled |
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cobrajet25
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Post by cobrajet25 on Aug 10, 2020 4:45:19 GMT -8
What a joke. I can just imagine Bonham's "experts" looking these watches over...
Expert #1: "Here is Lot #1. What do you think?"
Expert #2: "Hmmm... Yep, it's a Seiko!"
Expert #1: "Okay, now we have Lot #2. What do you think?"
Expert #2: "Very interesting. Let me check the case back. Yessir! This is a Seiko, too."
Expert #1: "Awesome! This is easy! We'll be done in no time. What about Lot #3 here?"
Expert #2: "Ahh. This one is a challenge. Says 'SEIKO' on the dial, which, in my expert opinion, means this is a Seiko, too."
Expert #2: "Great, moving on to Lot #4..."
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Post by doomguy10011 on Aug 14, 2020 7:10:33 GMT -8
I'm definitely not a big fan of Hodinkee and other similar groups. I remember just about every Seiko-related article I read there had pictures of cobbled-together fakes that were so glaringly obvious.
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I didn't pull any punches. This is a total black eye to our hobby and could have hurt financially many unwitting bidders. How this was allowed to happen is baffling. 
