Vintage Seiko World Time - Collectors / Owners

[dapellegrini]

Aug 15, 2021 22:24:32 GMT -8 Fergus said:

Another brochure pic for your web

...

Of interesting note the other visible watches in your catalog shot (now added to the Google Doc) have similar case to the 640X as well.  The most plausible answer to the brushed vs polished question (at least to me) is that there is a parallel but different model that had the same case with a brushed finish - somewhere in SEIKO's massive catalog of watches of that era.  I cannot find a single NOS watch (past or present) or comment or article online that confirms this watch series ever had a brushed case straight out of the factory.  Again, always happy to be wrong - for the Google Doc, I have noted the speculation of a brushed 640X version.

[HiBeat]

Aug 16, 2021 7:59:59 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Aug 15, 2021 18:30:17 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

Yes, to that point about the cities ring - the red is replaced with orange to match - someone tell me how a redial or AM dial guy produced that !

HiBeat - I have read that the O in SEIKO on many aftermarket dials is more perfect circle - where on the original dials it is more oval like an egg on its side.  There are many aftermarket dials that look quite good.  From your photo, I am pretty sure the Orange dial is an AM dial with the circular O - vs the standard white dial at left where you can see the more oval O.  [EDIT] You can also see where the E in WORLD TIME is placed under the SEIKO in the original VS aftermarket changes a bit

The lume application appears more round than rectangular, and that greenish mismatch lume marker by the date window does not look right.  

Also, I think it is a trick on the eyes having the bezel right next to the orange makes the more red text on the bezel appear orange.  I pulled your photo into photoshop - and the orange 24 hour ring color does not match the bezel color - again might just be the photo - but I am pretty sure this is an AM dial.  Still very cool, just likely not original.

All things we have all considered many times in the past over many dial styles.

Where I lean given the positively perfect linen finish is that it's OEM but who really cares it's not documented in any catalog so by definition it won't be fully accepted.

And the ring still looks to have orange ink to me in real life !

[dapellegrini]

Ya - no worries. Cool look for sure and I appreciate the feedback.  The perfect circle / short O in SEIKO seems the most obvious sign on the dial to me.  As for the bezel, well, this aftermarket one does look orange to my eyes / on my screen:

seikosis.com/collections/dial/products/white-inner-chapter-ring-seiko-world-time-gmt-6117-6400-6117-6409-navigator



If you don't mind sharing the Year/Month of the original case back, I will note it - so that if/when we see another one of these popup we have another data reference point.  The one I found on WUS had the wrong case back entirely - was an obvious parts job of some kind.  

[dapellegrini]

Also, as a matter of pure speculation, I believe these watches are becoming more and more sought after.  As evidence I would submit the significant increase in sale prices over the last several years for good examples.  If there are other legitimate color combos, case finishes, etc, there is a good chance we will see information become available as more of these watches change hands, either from generation to generation or through estate sales, etc.  There is a big market for vintage these days, and I doubt many of these are ending up in landfills anymore. 

Of course I could be completely wrong - and God knows SEIKO made a lot of watches and variations - just have a browse through the catalogs of the day - it is a tiring visual exercise.

For my part, I am hoping to gather all information (including speculative) in one place, so we can collectively weed out the speculation and arrive as best as possible at clarity in terms of what is/was original.  To that end - any information is welcome and very much appreciated.

[inboost]

Aug 16, 2021 11:10:38 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

So far I just have the Crystal P/N noted for the 6117-640X, and skimmed an ETA mainspring P/N from inboost's thread(GR25341X).  Would that same mainspring work for all 6117A/B movements? Are there other commonly replaced parts?

Here's a list from the Jules Borel database website that correlates the original Seiko main spring part number 401-615 to a replacment. However it's been our collective experience that the GRX2534-X doesn't capture the barrel arbor 'hook' and when you try and squeeze it down to do so it tends to snap (it's too hard to bend it). So yes, I've just confirmed recently the GR25341X works, and the mainsprings that are meant for the ETA movements 2892 or 2982A2 (ETA sub part number 771 on these two movements) is also suitable.

You can see many 61XX or 63XX movements use this same part number in the list below:

[dapellegrini]

Excellent - thank you!  Now included in the Google Doc

[Fergus]

Aug 16, 2021 12:37:19 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Aug 16, 2021 12:00:57 GMT -8 Fergus said:

Sorry it’s the first 3 digits of the second series of 4 that dictates the case shape.

The 8000 does not have a rotating bezel so the crown tube is smaller and yes their case shapes also differ.

Ah - ok.  That would work with the 6217-7000 changing to the 6217-7010, but not the 6217-7010 to 6117-601X - where those two (I believe) both share the same case, but one is 701 and the next is 601.  It is entirely possible those two do NOT infact share the same case - but that would be (welcome) news to me.

It appears there is at least one exception to the rule.

[dapellegrini]

Aug 16, 2021 22:05:53 GMT -8 Fergus said:

Aug 16, 2021 12:37:19 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Ah - ok.  That would work with the 6217-7000 changing to the 6217-7010, but not the 6217-7010 to 6117-601X - where those two (I believe) both share the same case, but one is 701 and the next is 601.  It is entirely possible those two do NOT infact share the same case - but that would be (welcome) news to me.

It appears there is at least one exception to the rule.

Perhaps because it changed models from 6217 to 6117 Seiko took liberties.  I have yet to find someone who has both a 6217-7010 and a 6117-601X to confirm all of this!  Those two models seem pretty uncommon

[dapellegrini]

I've found parts listing PDFs for the 6117A/B, but no actual service manuals.  Are those long gone?  

[inboost]

OK - Starting with the disclaimer of 'This is what I've learned by self study so far and is largely open to a more experienced horologist to confirm' [as in don't put it in your document just yet]

In the Seiko technical manuals there is generally a parent technical document for a movement that has like pedigree children, with either no reference to the child at all or perhaps a mention in the 'Table of Calibres' sheets that preface the technical sections or the 'Cailbre Charts' found in the Watch Parts Catalog. There also exist Oiling plans for these major calibre groups, but as you might expect it leaves some holes for unique watch 'complications' like the 24hr hand on the World Timers we're studying here. In the case of the 6117A/B movements, their technical reference is actually the 6106A "Seiko 5 Deluxe" as shown in the calibre chart below (Circa 1970 from my own paper catalog).

Then you try and piece the rest together from the parts list

[dapellegrini]

Interesting, and as usual very helpful.

So, if I am understanding this, then here is the service manual that would work (mostly) for the 6117A/B, right?


www.thewatchsite.com/d1/files/Casing%20Guide/20.%206106A.pdf

[inboost]

Aug 17, 2021 18:18:58 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Interesting, and as usual very helpful.

So, if I am understanding this, then here is the service manual that would work (mostly) for the 6117A/B, right?


www.thewatchsite.com/d1/files/Casing%20Guide/20.%206106A.pdf

Yes, that's the one! You'll note straight away some immediate discrepancies between the 6106A and a 6117B movement like the twin-screw connection of the oscillating weight to the framework for automatic device. Also in our case here, the day of the week 'complication' has been "exchanged" for the 24hr function and the day/date correction gear that accompany it are not the same either. In fact, there exists a perilous assembly point not outlined at all you can see in my thread specifically referencing the yoke spring and the setting wheel lever that is easy to miss. So unless you have an exact calibre to service document correlation, your inner horologist must be summoned to fill in the gaps.

[dapellegrini]

Aug 17, 2021 18:11:55 GMT -8 inboost said:

OK - Starting with the disclaimer of 'This is what I've learned by self study so far and is largely open to a more experienced horologist to confirm' [as in don't put it in your document just yet]

...

Oh - I missed the don't put it in the Google Doc yet part - I did add it - as it is the best information I have come by so far.  Happy to revise as better information comes along - but honestly this is the most helpful service info I have found on the 6117A/B.

[Fergus]

Aug 16, 2021 12:37:19 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Aug 16, 2021 12:00:57 GMT -8 Fergus said:

Sorry it’s the first 3 digits of the second series of 4 that dictates the case shape.

The 8000 does not have a rotating bezel so the crown tube is smaller and yes their case shapes also differ.

Ah - ok.  That would work with the 6217-7000 changing to the 6217-7010, but not the 6217-7010 to 6117-601X - where those two (I believe) both share the same case, but one is 701 and the next is 601.  It is entirely possible those two do NOT infact share the same case - but that would be (welcome) news to me.

From my '69 casing parts catalogue it would appear the cases are different

6217-7010
Material: SSWP Screw In
Glass: 350W02AN
Case Back: 003280B
Crown: 60W02N
Winding Stem: 357500

6117-6010/19
Material: SSWP Screw In
Glass: 340W06AN
Case Back: FH2920B
Crown: 60W06N
Winding Stem: 357611

[dapellegrini]

So far, I have documented 3 different case designs across 4 major releases (5 if you count the Asian Games as a separate watch). These break out into 6 model numbers and give us at least 14 different dials, 10 different bezels, and 7 different case backs - whew ...

[pip]

Aug 18, 2021 9:01:23 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

So far, I have documented 3 different case designs across 4 major releases (5 if you count the Asian Games as a separate watch). These break out into 6 model numbers and give us at least 14 different dials, 10 different bezels, and 7 different case backs - whew ...

You are doing The Lord's work...!

[Fergus]

Not forgetting the frankenseiko’s assembled from a mixture of those and AM parts.

[dapellegrini]

Ya - when you add in the AM dials and the Part's bin rebuilds with mismatch bezels - there are just way too many!

[dapellegrini]

So....  if I hit 100 pages on my World Time doc, would that earn me the title "WIS"?  I always thought I just "liked" watches...  Now I'm rattling off reference numbers and matching case backs to dials and bezels for production years - OMG...  Maybe worst of all, this is actually all quite fun.

[inboost]

dapellegrini, it was easy for me to go from 0 to 60 with horologic enthusiasm as well! I'd say we're all of similar calibre here (pun intended). I know I am enjoying  it more fully because of this community, and to that point thank you for putting your time into it as well. So knight yourself with any acronym you wish and keep on trucking.

Inboost