Vintage Seiko World Time - Collectors / Owners

[dapellegrini]

Quick update here.  First of all, the document is now 110 pages - so ya, WIS it is - but only for this subset of watches.  Maybe SWTIS actually.

Also, some interesting updates (to me at least):

 - I've increased image sizes throughout - for those with bad eyes like me - or on small screens
 - I have discovered many variations of the 6117-640X case back - now documented in the 4th Gen Case Backs section
 - I have updated Gen 2 to reflect the fact that there are two completely different dial and hand sets going on there - one with no lume for the Asian Games that appears to only run through 1966, and another with lume that only runs in 1967
 - I have a hunch that the dolphin case back on the Gen 1 watch was a one-month run, December 1964 - please try and prove me wrong
 - I have a hunch that the gold/gilt 4th gen watch was only done in 1972, perhaps only for a month or two - again please try and prove me wrong
 - I've added a bunch of original box and paperwork photos to each gen as a new sub-section
 - I've added every catalog or ad scan I have come across.  Oddly nothing for the gen 2 watches, either Asian Games or the Standard version.  Would love to find those - if anyone out there is better at google than I am ...

At this point I believe the document is as accurate and complete as I can get it with the information I have at hand.  Of course every time I think that, I find something else to dig into...

Thank you to everyone here that has given feedback, advice, photos and encouragement.  

And if any of you have a 6217-7010 or 6117-601X collecting dust or sitting in a box somewhere - I am in the market.  Will pay top dollar for a well sorted, working and original example of either - something less for an original with no major damage that needs sorting.

[dapellegrini]

Also added a timeline to the document - in the intro section ... here's a preview of what that looks like:

[inboost]

dapellegrini - Looks sharp!

[dapellegrini]

Thx.

I also took a free trial subscription to an old newspaper search system - and have appended several old newspaper ads of the first and fourth generation watches.  

[inboost]

Wow, that's a neat idea! I wouldn't have thought of that. How about old magazines they might have been advertised in? I have found a lot of info in old magazine adverts on some other restoration projects I've worked on (not watch related). Not sure which would suit, but I would have to imaging Seiko putting big full color ads in some kind of publications.

[dapellegrini]

Sept 1, 2021 6:35:54 GMT -8 inboost said:

Wow, that's a neat idea! I wouldn't have thought of that. How about old magazines they might have been advertised in? I have found a lot of info in old magazine adverts on some other restoration projects I've worked on (not watch related). Not sure which would suit, but I would have to imaging Seiko putting big full color ads in some kind of publications.

I tried that too - but haven't found anything helpful there (yet).  Hard to guess where Seiko might have advertised - the old ad databases I have found don't have much (or anything) from Seiko's World time watches. 

Is there a specific database or site you search for magazine ads?  Could be I just haven't found the right one yet

[inboost]

I'm afraid not, content in searches sometimes led me to a PDF version of an old 1950's magazine someone had published. Recently I came across an issue of Horological Times from 1984 this way looking for old Staking Tool data.

Check it out

Inboost

[inboost]

Aug 16, 2021 16:09:33 GMT -8 inboost said:

Aug 16, 2021 11:10:38 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

So far I just have the Crystal P/N noted for the 6117-640X, and skimmed an ETA mainspring P/N from inboost's thread(GR25341X).  Would that same mainspring work for all 6117A/B movements? Are there other commonly replaced parts?

Here's a list from the Jules Borel database website that correlates the original Seiko main spring part number 401-615 to a replacement. However it's been our collective experience that the GRX2534-X doesn't capture the barrel arbor 'hook' and when you try and squeeze it down to do so it tends to snap (it's too hard to bend it). So yes, I've just confirmed recently the GR25341X works, and the mainsprings that are meant for the ETA movements 2892 or 2982A2 (ETA sub part number 771 on these two movements) is also suitable.

Hi There dapellegrini,

It looks like I'm going to have to ask you to print a retraction in your reference document. This substitute main spring has not been able to deliver the performance of the original. It's still under investigation but it's not looking good for the GR25341X at the moment. Keep an eye on my thread on the restoration of my 6117-6409 for more details.

Inboost

[dapellegrini]

No worries - extracted for now. 

[dapellegrini]

I've just acquired another 6217-7000, this time with a silver dial, from the original owner/buyer on original bracelet.  



As I was packaging this and a couple others up (photo'd below) to send in for complete overhauls - I noticed that the GMT hand is thinner than my other one...  So I had a look through various listings online and checked the ad scans.  It looks like there are two different shaped GMT hands - at least for the 6217-7000.  One is thin through and through, the other is tapered, thicker at the center of the watch and getting thinner as it extends out to the tip of the hand.  Both shapes can be found in the ad scans - confirming both of these GMT hands are original / OEM and correct for this model.

You might be able to tell in this photo - my black/gray dial has a gold GMT that is tapered.  The silver dial has a thin GMT.  I have found examples of both in gold and black colors



I added more examples to the doc, in the Gen 1 dial variations area.

[dapellegrini]

Finally, on the short, non-lumed GMT hands (6217-7000 and 6217-7010) - there are also red ones floating around.  I am not yet clear where those fit into the models/gens - but I suspect these are originals... In both thin and tapered shapes

Four current cases in point:

#1 - Not sure if this is an original setup - but interestingly it is on a "1967" 6217-7000






#2 - And a white dial one - also interestingly is a Dolphin case back - which I currently suspect was only made in Dec 1964:








Both of these examples are on special / odd date or case back watches. 

#3 - This one on WUS also has the red GMT, and is a dolphin case back:

www.watchuseek.com/threads/sold-rare-1964-seiko-world-time-dolphin-back-automatic-ref-6217-7000.5288019/

#4 - But then this Dolphin case back has a black GMT:

watchcharts.com/listing/92100/fs-rare-seiko-6217-7000-world-time-dolphin


Still scratching my head...  Perhaps somewhere in Dec 1964 the started producing a red GMT version?  Then went back to standard colors in the 6217-7010?

[inboost]

dapellegrini - Wow, congratulations on the beautiful additions to the collection. Neat how you discovered the 24hr hand differences too! I had no idea of the 'error bezel' upon purchasing mine and learned of it after the fact. At first I was worried it was a counterfeit, but was later pleasantly surprised to have the less common of the 6117-6409 bezel. I think there have been rumblings to abolish the BST time changeover in fvaor of keeping the +1 offset. So who knows, maybe these old 6409's are about to have a reversal and the error bezel will be the alternative! 

[dapellegrini]

Ya it seems the evolution of these things is like the threading on a screw - once per turn you find yourself in the same place - just one rung forward (or backwards).  

I'm still on the hunt for one or two good examples of the 6217-7010 and the 6117-601X models.

In the meantime I have my first digital world time arriving soon - a 1978 PAN-AM, direct descendant / replacement for the 6117-640X.  

[dapellegrini]

My new dilemma with the silver dial 6217-7000 is that the original bracelet it came on is WAY too big for me - and you can only adjust by maybe 1/2 inch at the clasp.  As these old bracelets used to be cut to size - I guess the only reasonable thing for me to do is set the original bracelet aside and swap it for something I can size properly while wearing

Hadn't really thought of that problem before buying it - but I guess it wouldn't have stopped me anyhow... 

Something to consider for anyone else looking for a 6217-7000 on original bracelet.

[inboost]

Sept 24, 2021 14:22:45 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

Ya it seems the evolution of these things is like the threading on a screw - once per turn you find yourself in the same place - just one rung forward (or backwards).  

I'm still on the hunt for one or two good examples of the 6217-7010 and the 6117-601X models.

In the meantime I have my first digital world time arriving soon - a 1978 PAN-AM, direct descendant / replacement for the 6117-640X.  

I'm looking forward to seeing that 78 Pan-Am! I started watching one on Ebay when you brought this topic up but it's now gone (removing my temptation to jump to the LCD side)

Yes, it seems in the watch world we're all being taken for a turn aren't we?

[dapellegrini]

[digital world time post moved to that thread]

wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/22740/seiko-world-vintage-digital-models?page=1&scrollTo=251921

[dapellegrini]

While unfortunately I am not great with my hands and small objects like watch movements - I do know a thing or two about coding...  and decided to make a little web page / app that reads through a (growing) repository of case / caseback images to compile some production statistics about this series.

Of particular interest to me are:

 - The oddities in the 6217-7010 generation (lume vs non-lume vs Asian Games)
 - The 1967 production of the 6217-7000
 - and generally how many watches were made by year and model etc

So here is a first stab:

seikoworldtime.com/

I've thrown this up on a free hosting tier with Azure - and will likely have to rehost it somewhere eventually - still just a work in progress / concept at the moment.  I realize some people are not comfortable sharing serial numbers, but that is key to sorting production quantities (I think anyways)...  And these images are all easily found on Google Image search - including most of my watches in the series.

[dapellegrini]

Well that free instance got used up quick.  It is up and running again for now - on my dime.  links in previous post

[inboost]

Hi dapellegrini,

That's very cool! I will send you a private message with my full serial number for you to add to the collection.

Inboost

[dapellegrini]

OK - I have spent some serious time building out my case back study tool.  I have also cataloged 275 watches and expanded the data collection from simple case back info to more watch and dial related data points.

There are still a few things I want to do to improve the tool, mainly around image zoom and file size optimizations.  I will likely also optimize the code in other ways and will consider what could be done to use this tool against other watches for similar studies in the future.

Obviously as I come across more data I will try and keep this up to date.


A few new observations based on the data (that I also shared on TWS):

• Gen 1 through 3 show about 75% of dials being silver, with 25% being black
• Gen 4 is closer to a 50/50 split of black vs white dials
• The majority of Gen 4 dials had WORLD TIME at 6 o-clock through Dec 1970. From there on the vast majority were at 12 o-clock. It seems plausible the that outliers are dial swaps
• 6117-6409's seem to be manufactured only from 1970 - 1972, whereas the 6117-6400 version went from Dec 1969 through Dec 1976
• The GMT hand on Gen 1 (6217-7000) watches seems to be mostly the tapered version through Nov 1964. This narrow version is spotted from July 1964 through the 1967 models, suggesting the tapered version was the original GMT hand style and the thin version was an update / change later in the first year of production
• At some point soon, I will update the main Google Doc with better data-backed information from this study / tool

Also of note - it seems that many (if not most) of the watches that have questionable after market dials also have incorrect hands, bezel or crown - indicating that they have been messed around with - and reaffirming my current assertion that the Black dials with yellow or gray 24 hour rings are all aftermarket.

More data - and study required.

VIEW IT HERE:
seikoworldtime.com/