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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 29, 2022 15:39:29 GMT -8
Another something I am going to start looking out for is the use of the correct date wheel vs model. From what I can tell so far, the 6217 models use this date wheel: and the 6117 models use this date wheel They are quite different, for instance the 1's, 7's and 4's... I think I prefer the 6217 date wheel personally
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 29, 2022 18:26:50 GMT -8
I built a quick utility to do a side scroll through of each date - they don't line up perfectly, but should be pretty good for comparing a specific photo. Use the "click here" links to toggle the date forward or backward on each image simultaneously. seikoworldtime.com/articles/Date_Wheel_Changes#compare
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Apr 30, 2022 16:37:33 GMT -8
Now that's cool stuff there dapellegrini! Your website continues to increase in awesomeness every time you add to it
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suntzu
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Post by suntzu on May 10, 2022 19:47:31 GMT -8
Wonderful resource!! I was curious to know what people think of this dial? Is it an aftermarket? The crystal is scratched. I donβt see a linen finish but lume on a white dial. But maybe itβs the picture. Seems to have an error chapter ring. Is this legit? Iβm leaning towards legit overall but would love confirmation either way. Thanks for any input!
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Post by dapellegrini on May 10, 2022 19:52:47 GMT -8
Thanks Dial looks legit. The bezel should match a 1971 case back, perhaps early 1972 (as late as March) at latest. FWIW the white dial on the 6117-640X is very subtle texture. Earlier models have a much more pronounced linen texture on the silver dials. For the 6117-640X the black dial has the more pronounced linen texture. seikoworldtime.com/articles/6117-640X#dialClick the button to show more dial photos - you can see some close ups of the white and black dial for that model.
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suntzu
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Post by suntzu on May 10, 2022 20:12:07 GMT -8
Thanks Dial looks legit. The bezel should match a 1971 case back, perhaps early 1972 (as late as March) at latest. FWIW the white dial on the 6117-640X is very subtle texture. Earlier models have a much more pronounced linen texture on the silver dials. For the 6117-640X the black dial has the more pronounced linen texture. seikoworldtime.com/articles/6117-640X#dialClick the button to show more dial photos - you can see some close ups of the white and black dial for that model. Thanks! Iβve been reading your work instead of going to sleep π my concern was the lume. But everything else seems to check out when comparing to your work. The watch dates to February 1971. Thanks for confirming legitimacy. Is that the error chapter ring?
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Post by dapellegrini on May 10, 2022 20:15:25 GMT -8
Yes. It wasn't really an error, but it is referred to as the "Error Bezel". There are actually 3 different versions of the "Error Bezel", or with GMT separate from London - starting with the 6117-601X and continuing into the 6117-640X, with two version in the 6117-640X. More here: seikoworldtime.com/articles/Cities-Changes-Over-The-Years#error
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suntzu
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Post by suntzu on May 10, 2022 20:20:30 GMT -8
Perfect ππ» A little relieved now since I bought the watch for a great price before the due diligence. These arenβt in my Seiko wheelhouse compared to others, but always wanted to add one to expand my vintage collection.
Similar to coin collecting with varieties of the same coin or in this case a watch
Thanks again for your help and providing a fascinating resource for us.
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Post by dapellegrini on May 10, 2022 20:21:48 GMT -8
RE: the lume - it looks ok to my eyes. Some aftermarket dials do it better than others. I don't see any aftermarket tells on the dial.
EDIT: you're very welcome - glad it has some value to others.
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Post by dapellegrini on May 20, 2022 16:58:32 GMT -8
Third 6117-640X now. The H-Link bracelet is so much more substantial than the railroad - wow. The end links are also much more "integrated". Curious actually just how different the two bracelets are.
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jul 1, 2022 17:37:45 GMT -8
@dapelligrini Oh Mighty World Time Grand Guru (sorry, Grand Mufti has already been claimed ) can you advise me of the following?
One of my 6117-6400 World Times is a gorgeous watch but now revealed to be stuffed with a FAKE dial and inner rotating city ring. Someone made me aware that I had been taken and been sold a bill of goods on it, what a shame as it is a very gorgeous watch but a fake fraudulent Frankenturd at that. That someone, to close the loop, was yourself.
So I have picked up this (assumed to genuine) dial (surely needs work to be passable but the key element of all the ink and a nice patina once flattened and re-lume) to allow me to start a rebuild with at least not fake parts. Your impressions as to: A. Does this pass the official dapell genuine test ?
B. What color rotating ring would such a dial be properly mated to ? I note in the post immediately above this one, the one on the right has different dial text (automatic vs world time) so I make no assumptions as to having a similar inner rotating city ring.
Since I respect your immense knowledge of these models I hope you can clarify A. and B. for me - thanks in advance !
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Post by dapellegrini on Jul 2, 2022 8:39:27 GMT -8
HiBeat - that does look like an authentic 6117-640X dial to me. I will be curious to see how your repairs turn out! Seiko moved the WORLD TIME wording to 6-o'clock in the prior generation (6117-601X) and carried that forward to the early 6117-640X's. The data suggests that these 6117-640X dials with WORLD TIME at 6-o'clock were likely only manufactured in 1969 and 1970, if you are trying to match to the case back/date. The 6117-640X from 1971 through 1976 seem to have standardized the WORLD TIME at 12 o'clock. As for the bezel, I believe the only valid bezel for the linen black dial is the black one (below). Note, there are 3 different cities bezels for the 6117-640X series, EDIT: not counting color variations. This one (below) is the first version that was used in 1969 and 1970. It has GMT separate from London, and MOSCOW DHARAN. In 1971 this was replaced - with the easiest visual check being the change to MOSCOW-RIYADH, and GMT is still to the left of London. Then in 1972 through 1976 the 3rd bezel was used - where London and GMT are stacked. This is the one that would match your dial: Here's an article - scroll down from this link to see all the bezels used on the 6400 (fourth, fifth and sixth versions): seikoworldtime.com/articles/Cities-Changes-Over-The-Years#fourthFinal note - after market hands also abound. On the black dial versions of the 6117-640X, you should have hands w/o black stripe down the middle. On the off-white dial, the hands have a black stripe down the middle. On after market handsets, the black stripe does not extend past the lume to the tip of the hand - whereas the originals do (I can give you better examples of each if you are interested). Also there is an aftermarket GMT hand where the dog leg is bent too late / in the wrong place - I can also give better examples of this if you are interested. Here is the hand set that you would want to match that dial: Here's a link to the dials for these early 6117-640X's, you can kind of see the different handset used on the white vs black: seikoworldtime.com/articles/Dial-Changes-Over-The-Years#fourth
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jul 2, 2022 19:23:48 GMT -8
Thank you kind sir. Really amazing level of detail there. Many thanks
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Jul 3, 2022 3:27:48 GMT -8
Thank you kind sir. Really amazing level of detail there. Many thanks
I'm telling you HiBeat - Selfishly I feel we need to get dapellegrini hooked on Pogues next. Could you imagine how amazing that website might be?
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Post by dapellegrini on Jul 3, 2022 18:40:35 GMT -8
I still have a few world times to acquire (4 to go to have at least one of each), more research to do and a few more articles to write, but I think I will take a break from Seiko World times once I finish working through my backlog (through 1988). At that point, I may be interested in finding a new muse. The Pogue is perhaps overplayed in the vintage Seiko world... ? Frankly I don't understand why Seiko hasn't already released several limited (read expensive) re-editions - they would make a killing, and I would probably already own one . I recently visited my dad (the one who gifted me the 6117-6409 that started this folly) and he has a 6139-6002, sold to him as all original, but obvious aftermarket dial and bezel. I guess I could find some fuel in that. Then there are also several other perhaps under-researched lines... Bell-matic, Navigator GMTs (probably the easiest transition point), Alpinists (originals), Rally's, Sushi Rolls... calculator watches... or other? For now, I REALLY want to find a good example of this one (to purchase): 6217-7010 silver dial - circa 1967 That is the LAST stainless steel World Time that I have to source. The other three are all SGP versions of watches I otherwise have...
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Post by dapellegrini on Jul 5, 2022 19:13:43 GMT -8
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Post by dapellegrini on Jul 7, 2022 19:10:20 GMT -8
A quick cross post from TOF... Here's my (manual) rarity index tally based on the data so far: - The SGP 6117-6409, with as few as ~4k examples
- The 1967 Re-edition of the 6217-7000, with as few as 6k examples
- The December 1964 Dolphin case back 6217-7000, ~8k examples
- The 1967 (second series) (silver 75% / black 25%), 6217-7010, ~75k examples
- The 1966 Asian Games, ~88k examples
- The Original 1964 6217-7000 (silver 80% / black: 20%), ~90k examples
- The 6117-601X (3rd series) (silver 75% / black 25%), ~105k examples
- The 6117-640X (4th series) (silver 50% / black 50%), at least 220k examples
Those 1966 and 1967 serials have my logic in a knot, but I doubt they would fall below 10k, so probably slotted correctly above.
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 20, 2023 17:21:02 GMT -8
I continue to study out the fringes of these old World Timers, with really just a small handful of unsolved mysteries. One is where the red GMT hand belongs in the 6217-7000 series. I suspect it was on these 1967 re-editions, along with the updated lumed hands, and had hoped that the watch I just received today would show no signs of tom-foolery inside the case (despite some obvious damage and monkey business on the outside of the case).... but alas there is at least one service mark, looks like from the 70's. All the same, I suspect this is an original setup, and unique to the 1967 re-edition with the engrave olympic torch More photos once the case and bracelet are out of the U/S. I also believe this is an accurate and rare bracelet option. It is in very rough shape - but you can see it in this ad from 55+ years ago
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 20, 2023 18:11:54 GMT -8
Ok, here's the case back And service mark And the problem with the internal bezel not rotating is right here.... No idea if I will be able to source a new one of these... Seems the kind of thing 3D printing would be very good at...
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Apr 21, 2023 5:54:28 GMT -8
dapellegrini - I bet we can fix that bezel! I would use some epoxy over the broken teeth and then file their profile back into the blob so you had good teeth back at that location. No one will ever see it so any color epoxy would do.
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