cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Sept 13, 2014 5:19:59 GMT -8
|
|
sdoocms
Is a Permanent Fixture
Carl
Posts: 5,296
|
Post by sdoocms on Sept 13, 2014 5:40:58 GMT -8
It is definitely a nice watch but I would not spend that kind of money for it.
|
|
|
Post by SpinDoctor on Sept 13, 2014 6:00:08 GMT -8
what's "dead stock" mean?
|
|
|
Post by saul on Sept 13, 2014 6:13:12 GMT -8
what's "dead stock" mean? I'm guessing never even entered the AD chain after it was manufactured.
|
|
|
Post by Groundhog66 on Sept 13, 2014 6:16:12 GMT -8
I love this part... "BIN price is $20000 or more. When I come across a person who pay that price, I'll cancel this listing no matter how many bidders there will be."
|
|
|
Post by seikoholic on Sept 13, 2014 6:55:15 GMT -8
This is one of those special cases where the buyer had better be on his toes, and know his stuff. Anytime I see tags, I start wondering.
|
|
donciccio
Is a Permanent Fixture
Posts: 6,160
|
Post by donciccio on Sept 13, 2014 7:07:09 GMT -8
go higher? This is an absolute gem. Rare as hen's teeth, ... Whats so rare about hen's teeth? I got a whole mess of them in an empty coffee can back home.
|
|
|
Post by ninja01 on Sept 13, 2014 16:22:12 GMT -8
OK,well: 1. If it is indeed a REAL "NOS" 6186 VFA [Very Fine Adjusted] with original box and tags, then it sold (US$4100+) at a bargain price. A real VFA in good, but used condition, without any accessories, and without original strap/clasp could easily go US$8K -> $10K (that goes either for the auto 618x or the h-w 458x versions). 2. But, I don't see a movement shot - always gets me concerned unless I've had a LOT of dealings with the seller in the past & know his reputation. Though in this case, guy likely didn't want to risk "gouging" the case-back attempting to open it after many years of being shut tight (likely). BUT, if I were seriously interested in it, I would definitely insist on either movement shots or absolute right to return it at SELLERS expense if he didn't provide good clear, highly detailed pics before sale. 3. Such things do show up extremely rarely, and if you are a serious collector of rare & ultra-hi-end Seikos (or Japanese in general), it is something you would definitely want to investigate and invest in. Likely, the US$20K value of it (if legit & in that "NOS"/Mint state) is in the right ball-park. xxxx database links: {Sorry, links removed due to dispute with owner of that site} The only Seikos that would "trump" this type of thing as a hi-end & rare collectible: 1. An actual Observatory Chronometer GS (one that was submitted for the Swiss competitions & "passed", then was sold to public by Seiko). 2. An experimental model. I've seen a sales posting from Japan from a mid '60s "high beat" experimental model based on a low-beat calibre. We talked about that & other sightings (KS & GS experimentals) at Dr. Seiko a few times: Example shot of movement of the GS said to operate @ 20-vibrations [72,000bph!]: It was not a sales listing but an example in an online (Japanese source) reference site. Other experimental models (from Seiko sources, not outside examples) are things like "The Potato" (cal. 965) and the cal. 052: About the only Citizen to "trump" this would be a Glorious Citizen (about half way between a Grand Seiko Special and a VFA in terms of accuracy standards from the factory). Extremely hard to find as its likely production was extremely small compared to ultra-hi-end Seikos.
|
|
cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,274
|
Post by cd_god on Sept 13, 2014 16:52:50 GMT -8
I have to say that is one of the ugliest dialed models.
I know it is what is under the hood that counts but unless you have a WHOLE lot of disposable income to buy a watch you would never wear or even enjoy looking at (my opinion of the watch) I would pass at any price even if I had the money.
|
|
|
Post by ninja01 on Sept 13, 2014 17:35:29 GMT -8
I have to say that is one of the ugliest dialed models. ... (my opinion of the watch) I would pass at any price even if I had the money. Well, I know that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but to me it just seems a typical late '60s to early '70s style slightly modern but still classic dress watch. I don't know your typical taste in watches, but to me I don't see "ugly" there. But, yes - I would also not buy this at what it likely would go for as a legitimate "mint" VFA w/ accessories. US$20K (more or less) is something I'd pay for a Patek-Philippe, Breguet, Rolex (but only because they are so popular even outside the collector community), IWC complicated or solid gold (case & bracelet) model, not a Seiko [especially if I wanted to get my money back in a number of years, with some growth, or at least keeping even with inflation]. I suspect the Seiko collector/investor base still would not support an "investment" in such an item. But as far as looks, well not my absolute favorite style, but still "acceptable" in my book. I however, like the looks of the following much better for a much more "reasonable" price range. From my collection, all gotten in the Philippines: Nice inside too! A high-end, pre-Grand Seiko, automatic And the 1st Generation GS / Chronometer automatic: with the cool "Lion" (designating Chronometer grade) medallion back: For a nearly equal quality Citizen to the Seikomatic J13.083: And back to Seiko, likely the best quality automatic BEFORE the advent of the 394/395: the 30j variant of the cal. 603 that superceeded the 1st truly "native" Seiko automatic, the Gyro Marvel: My favorite design/variant of King Seiko h-w {1st Generation King in large diameter case with the Special dial}: and the medallion I most love in KS line: For a Citizen hand-wind with pretty good quality: For a dark dial: for beauty of the movement that is most closely architected to a 4580 VFA: Seiko (Daini division) cal. 45 (or 4500) in my 45-8000 King Seiko: maybe not to the taste of the majority of dress-watch wearers though. And even a classic mid-to-late '50s Orient!! Heck, even a classy looking (and heavily jeweled!!) Ricoh auto: Well, don't laugh too hard - Ricoh got into the watch business by buying Takano, which produced some nice stuff in the late '50s! and so on. Yeah - good looks & a truly "proficient" movement can indeed come with a moderate price tag!! BUT - the "cachet" of a limited quantity, hand-made & hand-tuned (by true masters of watchmaking) VFA does "call" to certain watch collectors.... "well heeled" ones
|
|
cd_god
Is a Permanent Fixture
Finna set up a HOOD next door to your richie phuk suburban mansion
Posts: 12,274
|
Post by cd_god on Sept 13, 2014 18:19:34 GMT -8
I have to say that is one of the ugliest dialed models. ... (my opinion of the watch) I would pass at any price even if I had the money. Well, I know that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", but to me it just seems a typical late '60s to early '70s style slightly modern but still classic dress watch. I don't know your typical taste in watches, but to me I don't see "ugly" there. But, yes - I would also not buy this at what it likely would go for as a legitimate "mint" VFA w/ accessories. US$20K (more or less) is something I'd pay for a Patek-Philippe, Breguet, Rolex (but only because they are so popular even outside the collector community), IWC complicated or solid gold (case & bracelet) model, not a Seiko [especially if I wanted to get my money back in a number of years, with some growth, or at least keeping even with inflation]. I suspect the Seiko collector/investor base still would not support an "investment" in such an item. But as far as looks, well not my absolute favorite style, but still "acceptable" in my book. I however, like the looks of the following much better for a much more "reasonable" price range. From my collection, all gotten in the Philippines: Nice inside too! A high-end, pre-Grand Seiko, automatic And the 1st Generation GS / Chronometer automatic: with the cool "Lion" (designating Chronometer grade) medallion back: For a nearly equal quality Citizen to the Seikomatic J13.083: And back to Seiko, likely the best quality automatic BEFORE the advent of the 394/395: the 30j variant of the cal. 603 that superceeded the 1st truly "native" Seiko automatic, the Gyro Marvel: My favorite design/variant of King Seiko h-w {1st Generation King in large diameter case with the Special dial}: and the medallion I most love in KS line: For a Citizen hand-wind with pretty good quality: For a dark dial: for beauty of the movement that is most closely architected to a 4580 VFA: Seiko (Daini division) cal. 45 (or 4500) in my 45-8000 King Seiko: maybe not to the taste of the majority of dress-watch wearers though. And even a classic mid-to-late '50s Orient!! Heck, even a classy looking (and heavily jeweled!!) Ricoh auto: Well, don't laugh too hard - Ricoh got into the watch business by buying Takano, which produced some nice stuff in the late '50s! and so on. Yeah - good looks & a truly "proficient" movement can indeed come with a moderate price tag!! BUT - the "cachet" of a limited quantity, hand-made & hand-tuned (by true masters of watchmaking) VFA does "call" to certain watch collectors.... "well heeled" ones All of those are acceptable in my book mainly because the text is "fancy " and they look like whomever designed them put their time and soul into them. The VFA look like it was built on an assembly line and designed by a computer (which at the time may have been trendsetting and futuristic but looking back today I don;t like it)
|
|
Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,213
|
Post by Rod on Sept 13, 2014 20:39:15 GMT -8
All of those are acceptable in my book mainly because the text is "fancy " and they look like whomever designed them put their time and soul into them. The VFA look like it was built on an assembly line and designed by a computer (which at the time may have been trendsetting and futuristic but looking back today I don;t like it) This is exactly why I won't buy a new GS, and they have over complicated the dial with "GS", "Grand Seiko" and "Seiko" when Grand Seiko would have been enough or even just GS!
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Sept 13, 2014 21:08:53 GMT -8
That VFA really is something else. Over my 12 years of collecting, I think I can count the number of 61-VFAs I have seen for sale on one hand...with fingers to spare. The styling of the watch is typical late 1960s Japanese...you like it, or you don't. But this isn't 1969 anyway, and this is NOT a watch that a person is going to wear. This particular watch belongs in a museum, and, as Ninja said, his BIN price of $20,000 is not out of line if you know what you are looking at. The VFA represents the pinnacle of Seiko's commercial offerings for the late 1960s. It is quite literally a "Swiss Slayer". It was one of the finest watches that Seiko's finest and most rarefied craftsmen were capable of creating at the time. An unbelievable amount of care was put into them. The seller clearly knew what he had, so I am baffled as to why he would list a watch he was expecting many thousands of dollars for with only a few fuzzy cellphone pics and a FIVE SENTENCE DESCRIPTION! Put some phukin' effort into it, man! He must have figured the watch would fetch what he expected simply based on what it was and not how it was presented? This guy seriously shot himself in the balls by putting up such a half-assed auction for such a fine watch. Had he listed it like a $20,000 piece of handmade Japanese horological art instead of listing it like it's a $20 Timex, he could have at least doubled his money. I wouldn't be surprised if he welches out on the sale and relists it. I was expecting it to fetch at least $8,000, and I thought the sky really was the limit. Whomever got that watch got a HELLUVA deal!!
|
|
|
Post by ninja01 on Sept 13, 2014 22:45:04 GMT -8
That VFA really is something else. Over my 12 years of collecting, I think I can count the number of 61-VFAs I have seen for sale on one hand...with fingers to spare. The styling of the watch is typical late 1960s Japanese...you like it, or you don't. But this isn't 1969 anyway, and this is NOT a watch that a person is going to wear. This particular watch belongs in a museum, and, as Ninja said, his BIN price of $20,000 is not out of line if you know what you are looking at. The VFA represents the pinnacle of Seiko's commercial offerings for the late 1960s. It is quite literally a "Swiss Slayer". It was one of the finest watches that Seiko's finest and most rarefied craftsmen were capable of creating at the time. An unbelievable amount of care was put into them. The seller clearly knew what he had, so I am baffled as to why he would list a watch he was expecting many thousands of dollars for with only a few fuzzy cellphone pics and a FIVE SENTENCE DESCRIPTION! Put some phukin' effort into it, man! He must have figured the watch would fetch what he expected simply based on what it was and not how it was presented? This guy seriously shot himself in the balls by putting up such a half-assed auction for such a fine watch. Had he listed it like a $20,000 piece of handmade Japanese horological art instead of listing it like it's a $20 Timex, he could have at least doubled his money. I wouldn't be surprised if he welches out on the sale and relists it. I was expecting it to fetch at least $8,000, and I thought the sky really was the limit. Whomever got that watch got a HELLUVA deal!! Yeah - gotta agree with everything you just said here. I would have liked to have gotten it for the $4150 it sold for (but for me, importing it into this country with all the customs duties & VAT) ... but let's see if the seller finds some excuse to back out of the deal, somehow ... and yeah, it would have gone into the bank box to stay. I just could NOT see myself wearing it around town (especially if you see some of the places I end up passing thru to get to town from my house... on the other hand, nobody would know what it really is & what it's worth... "oh, it's just a Seiko - forget it, what's in the wallet" Now if it were a common everyday Rolex (since they are quite common by comparison) ... well, that would be a different story: "man, this guy's wearing a Rolex, get it!!!" :-/ Uh huh...
|
|
|
Post by ninja01 on Sept 13, 2014 23:03:27 GMT -8
This is exactly why I won't buy a new GS, and they have over complicated the dial with "GS", "Grand Seiko" and "Seiko" when Grand Seiko would have been enough or even just GS! Interesting ... Seiko went thru this back in the mid to late '60s with the 6218 and maybe some other models as well. They started production with a quite complicated dial, then as time went on they kept simplifying it. Check out the xxxx database for the info on the 6218-8971 in the following entry. Excerpting from there, they started with this rather busy dial with an Autowind logo at top & the Applied Dial logo at bottom (under the Day window): then went to this somewhat cleaner design: Then finally went to this rather "clean" visual design: Each time the design changed, either logos or text was removed. Did you also notice the "Made in Japan" was shortened to "Japan" between the 1st & 2nd dial designs, at the very bottom where dial codes are put, to the left of the "6" marker?? Seems Seiko may have to learn that same lesson all over again. I will say though, from a collector's perspective, vs. a wearer's perspective - I like the 1st dial best (cool logos there!). But for wearing, I like the last/latest (cleanest) dial best.
|
|
|
Post by funkster on Sept 13, 2014 23:15:04 GMT -8
I would have said a genuine VFA in this 'almost NOS' condition should have found a much higher price. Saying that, these super-high-end examples are not posted as an open auction very often - more usually with an ambitious BIN price! I would have been delighted to pick up this one for that price. I suspect we may see it again shortly as whoever bought it could double their money by simply taking a few decent photos!
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Sept 13, 2014 23:52:33 GMT -8
This is exactly why I won't buy a new GS, and they have over complicated the dial with "GS", "Grand Seiko" and "Seiko" when Grand Seiko would have been enough or even just GS! Interesting ... Seiko went thru this back in the mid to late '60s with the 6218 and maybe some other models as well. They started production with a quite complicated dial, then as time went on they kept simplifying it. Check out the Dr. Seiko database for the info on the 6218-8971 in the following entry. seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/519/62188970-62188971#.VBU77ldpvNEExcerpting from there, they started with this rather busy dial with an Autowind logo at top & the Applied Dial logo at bottom (under the Day window): then went to this somewhat cleaner design: Then finally went to this rather "clean" visual design: Each time the design changed, either logos or text was removed. Did you also notice the "Made in Japan" was shortened to "Japan" between the 1st & 2nd dial designs, at the very bottom where dial codes are put, to the left of the "6" marker?? Seems Seiko may have to learn that same lesson all over again. I will say though, from a collector's perspective, vs. a wearer's perspective - I like the 1st dial best (cool logos there!). But for wearing, I like the last/latest (cleanest) dial best. Mine is from late 1966.
|
|
|
Post by ninja01 on Sept 14, 2014 0:23:52 GMT -8
Interesting ... Seiko went thru this back in the mid to late '60s with the 6218 and maybe some other models as well. They started production with a quite complicated dial, then as time went on they kept simplifying it. ... Mine is from late 1966. Makes sense! That is a later one and it also has the last version of the 6218 (the "C" variant) with the cog-wheel fine-adjuster instead of the "tadpole" found in the A & B. Mine are the earlier types and have "A" movement variants with the "tadpole": The top one pictured above is from Nov 1964. I believe the one immediately above is late '64 as well.
|
|
|
Post by boid69 on Sept 16, 2014 4:24:27 GMT -8
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Sept 16, 2014 4:59:36 GMT -8
Lol...and he is using the same shitty pictures!
|
|