The mysterious case of the Diani powered Lord Marvel

[DainiFan]

I'm sure everyone here is aware that Suwa and Daini operated fairly independently back in the day and that they did not share movement designs, and never both simultaneously produced the same movement or specific model during the period that they operated as rivals.

Or at least, that is what I believed until I same across this picture of a Lord Marvel with its 5740C movement signed by Daini Seikosha:

Does anyone happen to have any idea how this could have occurred? It was my understanding that Daini and Suwa never both produced the same movement simultaneously, and since the 5740C is a Suwa design, I have no idea how Daini could have even produced one, much less how they produced it and signed it before having it cased in a Lord Marvel with a Suwa signed dial?

[GuyJ]

I'm not sure of rivalry, but anecdotally I've had a couple of essentially 'Suwa' 6105-8119s that had daini signed framework for automatic device, so not sure it's something to be surprised about?

I did wonder whether only the 8119 has the daini signature which would tell us...well...something, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the movement on 8110s aswell. Just a guess and I'm not an aficionado of factory history. Anthony would probably have more info among others.

[HiBeat]

I am blown away by the picture of that bridge. It shows the movement was adjusted to three positions.

Here is a photo of my October 1967 proof. First year of manufacture. No mention of Suwa nor any adjustments.

I can't wait to have an expert (Paging Doctor Kable!) explain this.

[ajkrik]

Nov 16, 2017 9:08:48 GMT -8 DainiFan said:

I'm sure everyone here is aware that Suwa and Daini operated fairly independently back in the day and that they did not share movement designs, and never both simultaneously produced the same movement or specific model during the period that they operated as rivals.

Or at least, that is what I believed until I same across this picture of a Lord Marvel with its 5740C movement signed by Daini Seikosha:

Does anyone happen to have any idea how this could have occurred? It was my understanding that Daini and Suwa never both produced the same movement simultaneously, and since the 5740C is a Suwa design, I have no idea how Daini could have even produced one, much less how they produced it and signed it before having it cased in a Lord Marvel with a Suwa signed dial?

I'm not sure why you are asking about "Suwa" in this context. Seikosha (as far as I am aware) was used for decades in the 1900's. It was eventually generally replaced by the shortened "Seiko". Does the Lord Marvel 5740c have some connection to Suwa I am missing? The Marvel series was a '50s decade watch and has what seems to me remnants of the early pocket watch characteristics.

[Mr.Jones]

The 5740C was the last Evolution of the Lord Marvel and the only one in 36000 vpm. It was a Suwa caliber introduced in 1967, so Suwa and Daini were well established then. Dainiseikosha is the full name of Daini

Here is a nice read on the 5740C:

wornandwound.com/affordable-vintage-seiko-lord-marvel-5740-8000-lm5740-hi-beat/

Oh, and I can fathom Daini producing calibers for Suwa watches if needs were high and production capacity available...
They did it for the 62MAS...

[akable]

Despite being rivals there have been a few known examples of Daini producing movements for Suwa over the years. The general theory is that when Suwa could not meet the capacity requirements they would outsource the work to Daini. This could be due to high demand or could also be towards the end of a model when they were changing production over to another movement so had to reduce down the lines working on that calibre. I can understand how this can occur and if you you are Suwa and have to outsource to another company it would make sense to be Daini.

As mrjones says the most well known example of Daini made movements in traditionally Suwa watches is the 62MAS. These have a Daini branded movement and Daini Seikosha stamped on the inside of the case back. They can also be easily spotted by the brownish lume instead of the traditional green colored lume on the Suwa models. Would love to get my hands on one of these one day.

There are other examples of Daini components coming inside Suwa models. In fact I remember there was a model with a case with the Suwa logo on the back but inside it was stamped Daini and the movement was also Daini. My guess is that they were provided the cases complete but decided to stamp Daini inside the case to help their own internal QA and warranty claims.

[kulprit]

Interesting. I knew Daini and Suwa would sometimes pick up the slack for the other when demand outstripped production capacity, but like OP I never knew this extended to movements.

[DainiFan]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I had no idea that it was established practice for one factory to make cases or movements from a model from the other factory when extra capacity was needed.

[small]

Because I know next to nothing, I'd be interested to know, if it has a Daini case, and a Daini Movement; wouldn't it be possible that Daini then got the Dial from Suwa? Instead of the other way around...Or is there never a shortage of dials (Unless your looking for one for a 7009, but that's for a different thread)

[HiBeat]

I am intrigued that yours shows being adjusted to 3 positions, mine does not.

Can we see your dial please?

[Adrian-VTA]

I'm intrigued to know if the serialised chronometer grade movements were adjusted but just not marked as such.

e.g. the 44KS has weights stuck to the hairspring which requires hand adjustment.

Nov 16, 2017 19:17:11 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

I am intrigued that yours shows being adjusted to 3 positions, mine does not.

Can we see your dial please?

[Adrian-VTA]

What he said. I have heaps of 6139's and 6119's etc which are daini produced.

Nov 16, 2017 14:54:47 GMT -8 akable said:

Despite being rivals there have been a few known examples of Daini producing movements for Suwa over the years. The general theory is that when Suwa could not meet the capacity requirements they would outsource the work to Daini. This could be due to high demand or could also be towards the end of a model when they were changing production over to another movement so had to reduce down the lines working on that calibre. I can understand how this can occur and if you you are Suwa and have to outsource to another company it would make sense to be Daini.

As mrjones says the most well known example of Daini made movements in traditionally Suwa watches is the 62MAS. These have a Daini branded movement and Daini Seikosha stamped on the inside of the case back. They can also be easily spotted by the brownish lume instead of the traditional green colored lume on the Suwa models. Would love to get my hands on one of these one day.

There are other examples of Daini components coming inside Suwa models. In fact I remember there was a model with a case with the Suwa logo on the back but inside it was stamped Daini and the movement was also Daini. My guess is that they were provided the cases complete but decided to stamp Daini inside the case to help their own internal QA and warranty claims.

[DainiFan]

As requested, here is a dial shot:

[huangcjz]

Nov 16, 2017 9:08:48 GMT -8 DainiFan said:

I'm sure everyone here is aware that Suwa and Daini operated fairly independently back in the day and that they did not share movement designs, and never both simultaneously produced the same movement or specific model during the period that they operated as rivals.

Or at least, that is what I believed until I same across this picture of a Lord Marvel with its 5740C movement signed by Daini Seikosha:

Does anyone happen to have any idea how this could have occurred? It was my understanding that Daini and Suwa never both produced the same movement simultaneously, and since the 5740C is a Suwa design, I have no idea how Daini could have even produced one, much less how they produced it and signed it before having it cased in a Lord Marvel with a Suwa signed dial?

Nov 20, 2017 13:49:03 GMT -8 DainiFan said:

As requested, here is a dial shot:

You didn't mention the case number - was this a 5740-8009 rather than a 5740-8000? I have seen another example of a 5740-8009 with a Daini Seikosha signed movement: wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/19646/1968-seiko-lord-marvel-question

[nordlys]

Very interesting find. Thanks for sharing!

[thianwong]

Back in 2008 or so, I was wondering about the two divisions of Suwa and Daini. Found the history such as this site.

www.timesticking.com/daini-and-suwa-the-arms-race-of-seiko/

What I remember....during WW2 the Daini factory in Tokyo was bombed. Suwa had its factory south in Nagano and the Daini workers moved to the Suwa branch. Information thereafter was sketchy, or very secretive one article had mentioned. The outcome was the establishment of SII.