small
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Post by small on Jan 18, 2019 11:36:58 GMT -8
Everyone knows that the J at the end of a Seiko means its "Made in Japan" and is better than those you find made elsewhere around the world. This is not up for debate or discussion in this thread; start your own. I'm just stirring the pot.
Instead I wonder about the ebauches from eta, and other Swiss firms. There are quite a few higher tier watch manufactures; that start out with a "Base movement", and say they are adding their sauce, to make it better than it started out originally. Joker commented on a thread I had started about the AS1686, and I see micro brands saying they are including their sauce...Does anyone really know if for example; if a relabeled eta in a Hamilton is better? worse? than one found in a Gerrard Perrgaux, Benrus, Vulcan Et al.? Some of what I've read echos the debate among the J crowd.
Looking for donor movements is it worth paying more for an eta marked with GP (or better), over one from a "lesser" company? Do you end up "better" in whichever watch your transplanting it in? If your skill at servicing or having serviced are the same?
Is it making a Franken out of a watch if you do use one from a different manufacturer? It would be interesting to see if brand does make a difference. It would be hard to asses with used donor watches off eBay, but I wonder if anyone on here has an idea (I know you all have opinions). Does anyone have the same base movement from more than one "brand"?
Interested to read what others think...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 14:23:09 GMT -8
Sorry, can't ignore the J vs K thing. It was long ago established in emails from Seiko(yserv) that those letters mean nothing more than the distribution channels. We also know that made in Japan on the dial does not mean that at all. Seiko considers it's plants, anywhere in the world as Japanese and pastes Made in Japan on any watch that will not come under scrutiny in countries where printing origin of manufacture isn't a law. The same watch intended for Asian distribution might have 'Made in Japan' while one intended for North America is not allowed to have that printed on it since they were both made in a plant in Singapore, Malaysia or China. An MM300 or GS can be sold as Made in Japan because that is they are actually made.
Now, onto the larger question about ETA movements. ETA is simply an ebauches manufacturer and sells to any watch assembler(under their umbrella) that wants to pay the price. Only ETA produces ETA movements so they will be one of three different levels of quality; Standard, Elaborated, Top, and Chronometer. I read somewhere that ETA dropped the Elaborated level and now only has the Standard, Top and Chronometer grades available. The better brands will usually use the better grades and the no name guys will use the lowest grade.
So, you have 3 choices when stuffing another ETA movement into a watch. If you use the same grade then the watch should be considered as OEM. If you use a higher or lower grade movement then at best, it is a franken
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Post by philsinclair on Jan 18, 2019 18:33:18 GMT -8
Hi. As far as eta movements go, there is quite a bit of misinformation about. The higher grade brands who claim extre sophistication often don’t do anything themselves and get eta to do it for them. Cheers Phil
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small
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Post by small on Jan 18, 2019 18:41:55 GMT -8
Hi. As far as eta movements go, there is quite a bit of misinformation about. The higher grade brands who claim extre sophistication often don’t do anything themselves and get eta to do it for them. Cheers Phil So if buying a used donor from eBay would you think you'll get a "better" eta if it has a top tier name on a bridge or weight? Is it worth paying a bit more? I often search with the movement number and price can be double for one with a major brand attached. Wondering if its worth the premium? or are those being sold for less just sleeper and will preform the same as their "richer" cousins...
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jan 18, 2019 19:50:43 GMT -8
Some Swiss manufacturers buy ebauches from (anyone) like ETA and then upgrade in house.
Point: I have old Tudor quartz. It was 5 jewels top grade out of ETA, sold to Omega. Omega added 2 jewels. From those, Omega made many simply for Tudor, who then added 2 more jewels to bring it up to 9 jewels. Does it matter? I have no idea but presumably it helps.
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and thenadd a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2019 22:03:24 GMT -8
Some Swiss manufacturers buy ebauches from (anyone) like ETA and then upgrade in house.
Point: I have old Tudor quartz. It was 5 jewels top grade out of ETA, sold to Omega. Omega added 2 jewels. From those, Omega made many simply for Tudor, who then added 2 more jewels to bring it up to 9 jewels. Does it matter? I have no idea but presumably it helps.
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and thenadd a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
For quartz, wouldn't that be ESA?
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camrok
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Post by camrok on Jan 19, 2019 3:39:03 GMT -8
Interesting thread. It really boils down to what you’re trying to achieve.
I think everyone would be horrified if someone went and stuck an eta c01 chronograph into a speedy.
But if you were restoring an eta 2xxx in felca and had a donor from a Felicia, I’m pretty sure no eyelid would be flapped.
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Post by acidstain on Jan 19, 2019 6:12:13 GMT -8
Some Swiss manufacturers buy ebauches from (anyone) like ETA and then upgrade in house.
Point: I have old Tudor quartz. It was 5 jewels top grade out of ETA, sold to Omega. Omega added 2 jewels. From those, Omega made many simply for Tudor, who then added 2 more jewels to bring it up to 9 jewels. Does it matter? I have no idea but presumably it helps.
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and thenadd a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
Hamilton didn’t do all those. That is an ETA C07.111. Even the hamilton designed rotor was most likely done by ETA
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small
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Post by small on Jan 19, 2019 7:42:21 GMT -8
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and then add a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
Haters gonna hate. But going from 28.8 to 21.6 is big and noticeable to the eye. its not the difference between electric and quartz but its something you'll notice. I hadn't read the H-10 has a second barrel? I thought I read the power reserve came from beating less?? Anyway thanks for the input. I was just curious as I go down another rabbit hole with Swiss on the dial and seeing again so many of the "same" movement even in the higher end brands that I wonder what others thought...
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jan 19, 2019 12:17:05 GMT -8
Some Swiss manufacturers buy ebauches from (anyone) like ETA and then upgrade in house.
Point: I have old Tudor quartz. It was 5 jewels top grade out of ETA, sold to Omega. Omega added 2 jewels. From those, Omega made many simply for Tudor, who then added 2 more jewels to bring it up to 9 jewels. Does it matter? I have no idea but presumably it helps.
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and thenadd a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
Hamilton didn’t do all those. That is an ETA C07.111. Even the hamilton designed rotor was most likely done by ETA I stand corrected on the C07.111 part, I took mine to the Hamilton Service Center and had the guy run the sheet on it. Oddly I couldn't get a copy of his TG results (I have one myself) but he gave me the rest of it and you are right.
That said, isn't this 2824 based ? You would know better than me.
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Post by philsinclair on Jan 19, 2019 15:26:54 GMT -8
Some Swiss manufacturers buy ebauches from (anyone) like ETA and then upgrade in house.
Point: I have old Tudor quartz. It was 5 jewels top grade out of ETA, sold to Omega. Omega added 2 jewels. From those, Omega made many simply for Tudor, who then added 2 more jewels to bring it up to 9 jewels. Does it matter? I have no idea but presumably it helps.
Hamilton (now part of ETA) will take an ETA 2824-2, change the balance to a Hamilton-only design (using a laser to set beat error @0.0 ms when new, no manual adjustment) that beats at 21,600 instead of 28,800 and thenadd a second mainspring/barrel to up the power reserve to 80 hours. So then it is a Hamilton H-10. Definitely an upgrade to the 2824-2 although the haters talk about the 6 bps instead of 8 bps as being a big deal.
Hi. As far as I know Hamilton have no manufacturing facilities at all. Enhancements to the movement are produced by eta and watches assembled by Swatch. These are not separate companies but different brands from the same company. Cheers Phil
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Post by philsinclair on Jan 19, 2019 15:30:54 GMT -8
Hi. As far as eta movements go, there is quite a bit of misinformation about. The higher grade brands who claim extre sophistication often don’t do anything themselves and get eta to do it for them. Cheers Phil So if buying a used donor from eBay would you think you'll get a "better" eta if it has a top tier name on a bridge or weight? Is it worth paying a bit more? I often search with the movement number and price can be double for one with a major brand attached. Wondering if its worth the premium? or are those being sold for less just sleeper and will preform the same as their "richer" cousins... Depends on which brand it is,but generally you would expect a higher grade.. Cheers Phil
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Post by acidstain on Jan 19, 2019 19:03:50 GMT -8
Hamilton didn’t do all those. That is an ETA C07.111. Even the hamilton designed rotor was most likely done by ETA I stand corrected on the C07.111 part, I took mine to the Hamilton Service Center and had the guy run the sheet on it. Oddly I couldn't get a copy of his TG results (I have one myself) but he gave me the rest of it and you are right.
That said, isn't this 2824 based ? You would know better than me.
From what i heard it is based on the 2824, although i suspect a lot of the parts won’t interchange. Double barrel, different balance. Train wheel + escapement and pallet will most likely be different due to lowerer beat (like how it is between a 6497-1 vs -2). The c07.111 was released after ETA has tightened supplying parts/movements to third party, so the tech sheet was never even released to us.
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