Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,214
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Post by Rod on Oct 23, 2014 3:47:20 GMT -8
Well I suppose the Brightz Pheonix would be the "least expensive" like the SAGK001 at almost US$2k... This Ananta is like the direct descendant of the Big Blue 6138-0030 but at US$3k+... hmmmm... There are the Kinetics of course which are 'sort of' mechanical... Quite a few SAGK00x turn up for sale second hand on Yahoo, currently there is a very nice SAGK003 for $1200 with box and papers
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Oct 23, 2014 3:54:31 GMT -8
Looking at some of those, they look very well constructed and difficult to pick from an original. Not that I condone fakes. I just find it interesting how much better they've got. I was given a fake tag heuer professional years ago that was so good even the watchmaker didn't know until he got it open. It was solid as a rock too. If they've got better than that the swiss better watch out!
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Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,214
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Post by Rod on Oct 23, 2014 3:58:20 GMT -8
Looking at some of those, they look very well constructed and difficult to pick from an original. Not that I condone fakes. I just find it interesting how much better they've got. I was given a fake tag heuer professional years ago that was so good even the watchmaker didn't know until he got it open. It was solid as a rock too. If they've got better than that the swiss better watch out! Some even have genuine ETA movements fitted!! So in reality they are no better or worse than most Swiss shopping mall brands.
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Post by earthphase on Oct 23, 2014 5:47:10 GMT -8
Can't do fakes.
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Post by earthphase on Oct 23, 2014 5:48:14 GMT -8
Is the seagull movement really a good movement. I understand it is good "for the $", but is it just good?
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Post by 69ChevelleSS on Oct 23, 2014 6:34:07 GMT -8
What is an "asia valjoux 7750"?
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Post by sweephand on Oct 23, 2014 7:08:35 GMT -8
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Post by J. F. Sebastian on Oct 23, 2014 11:33:18 GMT -8
Is the seagull movement really a good movement. I understand it is good "for the $", but is it just good? You can find some teardowns and discussions of the ST16 at this thread and this thread at WUS. In principle, there's no reason it shouldn't be a very "just good" movement. In the 1960s, the Chinese government purchased the Swiss company Venus' entire production line for their 175 chronograph and used it to make watches for their MiG pilots. They didn't just license the design and copy it, they bought all the tooling, basically just relocated the factory to China and made that Swiss chronograph in China. The tooling was set up at the Tianjin Watch Factory, which went on to become Sea-Gull sometime in the 1990s. The ST16 is basically just a modern resurrection of that same chronograph design. I don't think they are still using the same equipment they bought from the Swiss in the 60s, but the point is that they either have or had that equipment, and have hands-on experience building this chronograph, for a special military project, so they presumably know what they are doing. Some quotes from those teardowns: - These are capable of accuracy on par with the Standard grade ETA 2824 or Seiko 7S36. Unfortunately, most people using these movement don't regulate them very tightly (given the cost range they work in, it really isn't surprising), so like the Seiko7S36 people don't believe they are that accurate.
- They are a little harder to regulate to satisfaction, as there is no mirco-adjustment for the regulator.
- the design is an excellent design, capable of hard use and good timekeeping.
So the movement itself is solid. But, the catch is in quality control. At the price point these are sold at, it's not practical to inspect and test every movement closely for small problems. The best ST16 an ST16 can be is indeed a good quality movement, but sometimes movements get out into the market with problems which should have been caught at the factory, and so you will find people reporting trouble, e.g. some more quotes from that thread: - When setting time, movement hacks as expected but as soon as I set it seconds hand jumps like 4 seconds
- If I shake it, seconds hand just stops for a brief of time. After it starts working again it starts gaining time. In about 2 hours it is like 7 seconds faster
These are not considered normal for this (or any) movement. Now, depending on where you buy it from, you should be able to get one of these dodgy movements returned and replaced for one which runs like it should, but if you buy from some random eBay vendor who is not affiliated with the relevant brand, you might be out of luck. Something else to bear in mind is that, while it's not an official Sea-Gull policy they tell you about on your website, most people in the Chinese watch community are pretty sure that Sea-Gull pick the best examples of their movements off the assembly line and use them in their own watches, and sell the less impressive ones to other makers to use in theirs. So if you buy an actual Sea-Gull watch, you're a lot more likely to be happy at the end of the day than if you buy, say, an Alpha with a Sea-Gull movement in it. Again, though, I think most of Sea-Gull's own chronos look pretty gross and wouldn't wear one no matter how good the movement was. I know you probably don't want to wait this long, but I'm getting one of those WUS-project 1963 replicas, should be in my hands sometime around Christmas and I'll be very happy to share my experiences and impressions when it gets here.
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Post by thianwong on Oct 23, 2014 12:35:41 GMT -8
I tend to agree with you, but most watch forums have it in their rules that fakes are not allowed. I myself have 2 replicas Omegas
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Post by thianwong on Oct 23, 2014 12:38:23 GMT -8
Here is a very nice quartz JDM Seiko Alba ROOX chrono for under $200. Found it used and scooped it up. The original leather strap was shot so I installed a spare of mine. Montage ROOX Challenger by blingmeister, on Flickr
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Post by thianwong on Oct 23, 2014 12:42:25 GMT -8
I tend to agree with you, but most watch forums have it in their rules that fakes are not allowed. I myself have 2 replicas Omegas SORRY...this should be in response to Sebastian's post...... I did have that vintage looking 1963 Seagull chrono. It has one small flaw, a pusher spring but I had it fixed by a fellow in the USA. It is a very nice looking watch and the ST19 is in general a good movement.
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Post by J. F. Sebastian on Oct 23, 2014 13:59:49 GMT -8
It is a very nice looking watch and the ST19 is in general a good movement. Yes, I have always admired the look of Sea-Gull's own 1963 reissue, and wanted one the first time I saw it. The new one which is being made on WUS is actually a much more accurate replica of the original (which, e.g., did not have a red star on it). It's been done with a truly geeky level of attention to detail (including noticing things like the font used for the number 3 on the chronograph registers is not the same font used for the number 3 on the minute markers, something else Sea-Gull's own reissue got wrong). It's about as close as you can get to one of the real PLAAF issued chronos without dropping $15k. I'm very excited for it, and glad to hear another voice backing the ST19.
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Post by earthphase on Oct 24, 2014 7:20:23 GMT -8
Is the Seagull SG2903 the same as the ST19? A watch I am looking at has the movement listed as the "SG2903 manual wind chron".
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Post by daveryan56 on Oct 24, 2014 8:06:35 GMT -8
I would think watches with the Chinese Seagull ST1940 chronograph movement would get close to your criteria. Stephen That would certainly be my go-to response for an affordable mechanical chrono today, but OP did say he wanted an automatic, and the ST19 is hand winding only - unsurprisingly, as it is very closely based on a Swiss design from the 40s or 50s. it is a venus 175 clone I think.
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Post by daveryan56 on Oct 24, 2014 8:17:15 GMT -8
Is the Seagull SG2903 the same as the ST19? A watch I am looking at has the movement listed as the "SG2903 manual wind chron". I have a magrette chrono that has the st-19 movement in it, I like it very much. I did have an issue with it but magrette replaced the watch for me. Depending on where you are in the world, seagullusa has got good customer service .from what I understand seagull produces different grades of the same movement, and sell them as such to companies so as long as you do a little internet research you should have no problem with quality. I dont think that the SG2903 is as reliable as the st-19 and certainly not the same but I have heard little in the way of complaints . are you considering an alpha hand wind chrono? I know they use that movement often.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 8:20:30 GMT -8
That would certainly be my go-to response for an affordable mechanical chrono today, but OP did say he wanted an automatic, and the ST19 is hand winding only - unsurprisingly, as it is very closely based on a Swiss design from the 40s or 50s. it is a venus 175 clone I think. The ST1940 is actually an automatic version. Also, the ST19 is not really a clone since it is manufactured using the original equipment that was purchased from Venus back in the 60s. There have been updates to the design and machinery to improve manufacturing and perhaps performance, reliability and parts count but it is essentially the same movement; not one that was copied like so many other movements.
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Post by daveryan56 on Oct 24, 2014 8:28:07 GMT -8
it is a venus 175 clone I think. The ST1940 is actually an automatic version. Also, the ST19 is not really a clone since it is manufactured using the original equipment that was purchased from Venus back in the 60s. There have been updates to the design and machinery to improve manufacturing and perhaps performance, reliability and parts count but it is essentially the same movement; not one that was copied like so many other movements. Cool glad to learn that little tid bit. I will enjoy my magrette just a little more!
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