What can you tell me about this watch? (Please!)

[Thomas]

Hello folks, 


I noticed this watch for sale, but it seems mysterious to my amateur eyes. 


It looks like an early model of the King Seiko, a hand-wind. But none of the pictures show the dial text legibly, and the movement seems to have no number.

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Do any of you now anything about this model?


What the movement is known as?
The bph rate?
What year it was made?


Any information would be greatly appreciated! 


- Thomas

[Deleted]

Looks to be from Sept 1962 going by the manual wind, style and serial number but I know 'nothing' about King Seiko watches. Looks to be in nice condition but once again I don't know these watches so don't take my word.

Peace,

Tone

[seikola]

Hi
Looks like a 4420 to me Thomas, But I'm no expert
Nice watch though

seikola

[philsinclair]

Hi. First model King Seiko. Ninja has fully covered this model in his posts here. Cheers Phil

[ninja01]

Nov 9, 2014 14:07:26 GMT -8 philsinclair said:

Hi. First model King Seiko. Ninja has fully covered this model in his posts here. Cheers Phil

Yeah, looks like it to me after a quick look @ this thread.

"J14" means it's the smaller size case & dial logo says it's NOT the "deluxe" version of dial. My larger sized 1st Gen KS starts w/ "15",  model# is 15034KS on that one...



Note that there is a size code in the older style Seiko model (case style #) numbers [AFAIK: starting somewhere in '50s thru about '64 when the xxxx-nnnn style started, w/ xxxx = calibre#]. The 1st 2 numeric digits of that older style are said to indicate the diameter of the dial aperture in lignes.



seen @
wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/4820/philippine-gems?page=1

Yes, I have discussed these in a couple other threads here, just search them out OK??

[Thomas]

Thanks Ninja,


I have read a few posts of yours now, and it seems it is a 18,000 bph movement.


The one I pictured looks like it also has the Diafix jewels. 


On the other hand someone pointed out that the movement hold-down screws on the one I posted are broken or missing! 

- Thomas

[ninja01]

Hi, just 1 more thing.

I saw an answer you got in another forum & I'll answer that answer here as I don't write on there anymore ....


You were given the wrong calibre# there.

Compare to your movement pic:

1st Generation movement (un-numbered calibre):


Can be seen at:

seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/273/Seiko-1st-Generation-Handwind#.VGE9WWckXoQ

and

seikoholics.yuku.com/reply/5945/The-1st-Generation-King-Seiko#reply-5945

Cal. 44A

from
seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/274/Seiko-2nd-Generation-Handwind-Cal-44A#.VGE9X2ckXoQ



There is (according to Kohei) an early design of hacking system w/ a visible hacking lever that rests against a disc that is placed in the center position. Above is my 44A w/o anything in the center position. The way it looks w/ that hacking system is very much like the 4420A

@

seikoholics.yuku.com/sreply/277/Seiko-Handwind-27j-Chronometer-Cal-4420A


In this shot though, the disc is missing. It would fit over the brass colored "gear" in the center. But, you can see the hacking lever there anyway.

The most visible difference & best way to tell if 1st Gen (un-numbered) vs. 44A is to look @ the shape of the center/main plate, on the right side of it. 1st Gen has a smooth "curve" all the way to the edge of the case while the 44A has a "notch" or projection just before it reaches the outer edge of the movement (and edge of case).

=============
Another thing about "yours" ... you can also tell it is a rather early one. The gold-filling is 100micron rather than the 80micron that came later. If you see the threads about my "large size" 1st Gen (starting w/ "15" in model/case #) it is 80.

[ninja01]

Nov 10, 2014 12:08:00 GMT -8 Thomas said:

The one I pictured looks like it also has the Diafix jewels. 


On the other hand someone pointed out that the movement hold-down screws on the one I posted are broken or missing! 

- Thomas

Yeah, the diafix in the center is a "giveaway" that the movement # he told you is wrong.

And, the movement screws; he is correct - but I see that a lot in items offered from that age. I don't think it would be a big problem especially if you are just using the watch "gently" and treating it more as a museum piece

[Adrian-VTA]

Can we dump a bit of this info over to here - wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/5981/king-seiko-4402-buyers-guide

Just we get these quite a lot, especially on the early stuff because they're thin on the ground and often oddly molested, and nobody is game to put their money where their mouth is advice wise. Also helps the board build audience if we are pretty useful.

Thanks!

[Thomas]

Thank you guys, but...


> "You were given the wrong caliber # there."
>
I did not get this picture from any forum, I just Googled an early KS at work this morning, so I could show the vendor what I meant, when I asked about the movement screws being missing/broken.

And the vendor has confirmed that there are no screws.


> "Yeah, the diafix in the center is a "giveaway" that the movement # he told you is wrong."
>
Here I am confused, as the original watch pictures have a Diafix jewel at the center, yes?


> "And, the movement screws; he is correct - but I see that a lot in items offered from that age.
>  I don't think it would be a big problem especially if you are just using the watch "gently" and
>  treating it more as a museum piece"
>
Yeah, well, that will never happen! :-O I always want to enjoy my purchases and once they are one the wrist, *anything* can happen! Motorcycle rides, impromptu Judo lessons, vigorous kitchen work, and drunken ogre that I am, falling down hard! :-D


- Thomas

[ninja01]

Nov 10, 2014 15:57:02 GMT -8 Thomas said:

Thank you guys, but...


> "You were given the wrong caliber # there."
>
I did not get this picture from any forum, I just Googled an early KS at work this morning, so I could show the vendor what I meant, when I asked about the movement screws being missing/broken.

And the vendor has confirmed that there are no screws.

I mean the movement pic you showed in the original post here:




> "Yeah, the diafix in the center is a "giveaway" that the movement # he told you is wrong."
>
Here I am confused, as the original watch pictures have a Diafix jewel at the center, yes?

OK, 1st Gen HAS diafix in the center wheel position. 44A does NOT.

AND, the movement pic you showed in the original post here did/does indeed HAVE diashock in the "center" -- so it is NOT a 44A like the guy said, it is an un-numbered 1st Generation KS movement, which preceeded the 44A. Don't know how else to say it, he was WRONG in telling you it is a 44A. It is the predecessor to 44A -- the un-numbered non-hacking movement!!

> "And, the movement screws; he is correct - but I see that a lot in items offered from that age.
>  I don't think it would be a big problem especially if you are just using the watch "gently" and
>  treating it more as a museum piece"
>
Yeah, well, that will never happen! :-O I always want to enjoy my purchases and once they are one the wrist, *anything* can happen! Motorcycle rides, impromptu Judo lessons, vigorous kitchen work, and drunken ogre that I am, falling down hard! :-D

Well then, I guess you'll need to have the broken screw drilled out, the hole re-tapped, and a new size screw set in there. Sounds expensive unless you live in a low cost country like mine!!

- Thomas

[ninja01]

By the way, Kohei's articles on KS (in 2 parts, but {CORRECTION: BOTH partS discusses} the early ones we're discussing here) are in Timezone, probably now in some archives. Top of that site is (should be, haven't gone there for a while):

forums.timezone.com

Seiko Archives is:

forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=82&rid=0

Try in there. I copied the articles to my private database a few years ago, so I just access it on my disk now & don't know where they have it/them located now.

Again,

1st Generation, un-numbered looks like this:



44A looks like this:
<img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://images.yuku.com/image/jpeg/43326575e818cdfe4f0fdafd1314763e4d428be4.jpg" alt=""><br><br>"Yours" looks like the 1st one here, 1st Generation.

[Thomas]

Nov 11, 2014 0:45:27 GMT -8 ninja01 said:

Nov 10, 2014 15:57:02 GMT -8 Thomas said:

Thank you guys, but...


> "You were given the wrong caliber # there."
>
I did not get this picture from any forum, I just Googled an early KS at work this morning, so I could show the vendor what I meant, when I asked about the movement screws being missing/broken.

And the vendor has confirmed that there are no screws.

I mean the movement pic you showed in the original post here:




> "Yeah, the diafix in the center is a "giveaway" that the movement # he told you is wrong."
>
Here I am confused, as the original watch pictures have a Diafix jewel at the center, yes?

OK, 1st Gen HAS diafix in the center wheel position. 44A does NOT.

AND, the movement pic you showed in the original post here did/does indeed HAVE diashock in the "center" -- so it is NOT a 44A like the guy said, it is an un-numbered 1st Generation KS movement, which preceeded the 44A. Don't know how else to say it, he was WRONG in telling you it is a 44A. It is the predecessor to 44A -- the un-numbered non-hacking movement!!

> "And, the movement screws; he is correct - but I see that a lot in items offered from that age.
>  I don't think it would be a big problem especially if you are just using the watch "gently" and
>  treating it more as a museum piece"
>
Yeah, well, that will never happen! :-O I always want to enjoy my purchases and once they are one the wrist, *anything* can happen! Motorcycle rides, impromptu Judo lessons, vigorous kitchen work, and drunken ogre that I am, falling down hard! :-D

Well then, I guess you'll need to have the broken screw drilled out, the hole re-tapped, and a new size screw set in there. Sounds expensive unless you live in a low cost country like mine!!

- Thomas

Ahhh, I did not see his second response, saying it was a 44 movement!


Now the comments you two were saying make more sense!!


The seller of the original watch I posted also admitted the dial was re-painted, and never responded about if the crown was original, or if the hands had been re-plated, so I had to sadly cross this one of my list.


- Thomas

[ninja01]

Nov 12, 2014 5:13:41 GMT -8 Thomas said:

Ahhh, I did not see his second response, saying it was a 44 movement!


Now the comments you two were saying make more sense!!


The seller of the original watch I posted also admitted the dial was re-painted, and never responded about if the crown was original, or if the hands had been re-plated, so I had to sadly cross this one of my list.


- Thomas

Not sure about the hands, I can't tell from the shots on my screen. I'd want to see it in person to say for sure. But, to me - replated hands would be no big deal.

Now, the crown - yeah, I've not seen that style of crown on these & from reading both of Kohei's essays (by the way: Part 2 of his essay does talk about the early KS models as well, so look at BOTH parts) I'd say it's not correct.

The dial: again, from the screen picsalone , not 100% sure. The "Diashock" line doesn't look 100% exact to me; but seller's admission of re-dialing does tend to confirm it as non original!!

[ninja01]

Did you see the latest attempt at an answer to the movement issue in the other forum where you posted this???

Today I see:

"Perhaps a 4402. The 4402 is with date, so maybe there is a date ring under the dial, or that plate got swapped.
its shapping up to be a real mutt. :?( "

Oh you have to be kidding me!! And this guy is a watchmaker?

I see the guy doesn't even bother to read the Database I created for him!! Duh!!

NO it is NOT a 4402 with the date ring hidden somewhere ... for goodness sakes!!

So, I suggest you not ask about the really vintage stuff over there anymore (if you want a correct answer) ... but definitely DO go read my (& Sweephand's for Citizen & other stuff) Database & my other articles there!!