Repro Dials - Feedback

[Adrian-VTA]

Hey Guys,

I may have the capability to do repro dials and re-dialing soon. In the first instance, I'd be looking at diver dials as they're a bit easier to do and there's less variables.

A lot of the cost in this work is making the plate that the pad printer takes the ink from. Per plate, it's $270, which is a fairly good deal. That's a photo etched printing plate that exists forever after. There's some other costs, e.g. cutting the dial discs etc. Using applied markers make it a lot harder, I can't do them right now.

So based on that, it could be a viable option to make repro dials that are perfect 1:1 repros.

So, the issues I see are as such -

1. Copyright issues, do SEIKO care too much about old discontinued, unavailable stuff?
2. If you could get a really good redial for perhaps 500-600, is that a cost you'd pay?
3. The bevelled window might be an issue in the short term, is it really that critical?
4. Do you think if the dial was etched on the back with "NOT OFFICIAL SEIKO PRODUCT", would that go a way to dealing better with knock off parts?

What's people's thoughts? Do I start making artwork and doing some testing?

[tritto]

$500-$600 per dial? I'm guessing that you wouldn't find many takers for a 6309 dial at that price (which seems to be a likely target).

[jringo8769]

well my thinking is if you could make a very close reproduction...i would do it...with all the bad ones out there...people would gladly pay more for a high quality reproduction....as long as you can make the dial itself with all the same materials and stampings....it would be a no brainer...and hey there is a way to get lots of old dials that the finish is worn too...i have a source overseas where they just toss them when they get rough looking....do you think you could redo old dials too?...with all the rare dials out there and needing to done...you should have a very busy new business for sure..i am very interested in this and will gladly help in any way i can...God Bless John
the bevel window is a deal breaker for me and most people...i have bought a few used ones and they can be had for about 100 or so..so if you need to get hundreds that would be very hard to do for a watch that is only worth maybe 300 or so...

hey why not reuse old genuine dials...that would keep costs low and would make life easier on you too..

[stevenjohn]

$500 is more than I would be willing to give for a repro.  I don't even think I would give that for NOS. 
I agree with jringo.  Why not start with a bad original?

[sdoocms]

Personally, unles the watch had some kind of sentimental value, I would not do a re-dial.  I would look for a better watch.

[Deleted]

Sorry personally I will not fit any reproduction items to my watches anymore. 100% Seiko or scrap it in my eyes. There would be a market for good mod dials but maybe not at that price. I can get dials repainted as per original for around £200GBP so a repro at $500+ is out anyway even if I did fit aftermarket or repainted dials.

[scubarob99]

I'm assuming the $500-600 is the initial cost to set up production...surely individual dials would be a lot less than the cost of an all original watch in good condition.

Rob

[Adrian-VTA]

Ah I mean by costs, a re-dial would cost about that, as in 5-600 as you need to make a plate for a once off job.

I'd expect repro's to be around 50-60ish i would hope.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

[jringo8769]

well that cost per is more than fair...i know i would pay up to 75 for a nice dial that is very close to the original....nothing ruins a great watch that a poor dial....hey if you want a few original dials to practice with...i would gladly offer some too...anything to help the cause...

[tritto]

Morning all. Well I would certainly pay $50-$60 for a really good redial if I needed one, as opposed to $20-odd for the options out there at the moment. Sorry for misunderstanding point 2 Adrian.

I'm not sure how long it would take you to shift that many dials though. I fear most people who buy a "restored" diver on eBay aren't going to go hunting for better reproduction or repainted dials. That leaves us, and most of us will go hunting a good original.

[solex]

It is a great project, I had thought about doing some simple dials with slide on decals and a really good printer.  I would hand lume them.  

I think that for restoration this is a good endeavor,  my dial cost about $200 and it is not perfect but very close to the original and looks light years better then what I started with.  In fact if you had some really nice dials for some of the stock movements at 50-60 I would be interested but what are you going to do about lume?

[cobrajet25]

Lots of aftermarket 6309 dials are "close".  But for this crowd, that doesn't tend to be good enough.  We can always spot 'em.

I'd say if what is offered isn't an exact 1:1 reproduction...leaving nothing on the table...it might not be worth doing.  As others have said, offering a spot-on redialing service (even on an exchange basis) might be a better bet than producing dials from scratch. 

Sometimes the original dials on 6309s are ugly and deteriorated, but they almost always have dials.  Maybe, if done carefully, the original stamped date code on the back of a watch's original dial could even be preserved?

[jringo8769]

hey i see some other very cool potential with too....we can use other dials that are unique and would look amazing with the factory looking markings...how about a yellow pogue colored 6309 diver dial?....the possibilities are endless....all we would have to do is have a great dial that is finished and read to go and have that applied with all the details..i am very excited about what can be made....

[Deleted]

I would not have any problem with redials on original dials. Likewise I wouldn't have any problem with an AM dial that was 100% faithful to the original since it doesn't really infringe on Seiko's IP as they no longer make them.

I do have a problem with poorly done and incorrect AM dials and I would like guys like Loy jailed for the atrocities they flood the market with!

Since the supply of decent OEM dials and watches is quickly drying up, I don't see there being any real problems with a $50 to $60 price for a 100% faithful redial or copy.

[seikoholic]

hmm.

Well, if you were able to make a true perfect exact reproduction of, say, a 6309 dial, I think you'd find many who'd get over some price considerations and reluctance to use the dials.  I'm talking if you come out with a dial that has the right linen-printed finish on the lume, people are going to lose their minds.  The right slightly puffy silver printing on "SEIKO"?  The right reddish-orange resist text?  A deep date window?

Brother, people would lining up to buy them.  Couple that with a decent complete set of hands, especially the sweep hand that NO ONE gets right for some reason?  Holy crap you'd have to hire people just to shovel all the money you'd bring in.

I might be exaggerating, but the thing is that people already spend real money on really bad dials.  Imagine if someone came out with a perfect reproduction dial?  My only thing is that it'd be nice to introduce one tiny extra thing, a near-microscopic dot or mark somewhere that indicated it was a reproduction.  But if you were able to make a dial so good that it would need that in order to not be sold as original?  Sign me up.

[tritto]

Maybe a slight variation on the Suwa symbol? Backwards or upside down to indicate its one of yours - or would that ruin the perfect reproduction theme?

[philsinclair]

Hi.mthis would release all the OEM dials people are currently hoarding. An indicator this is a am product at this price would shunt half the market. Cheers Phil

[seikoholic]

Apr 5, 2015 15:36:55 GMT -8 tritto said:

Maybe a slight variation on the Suwa symbol? Backwards or upside down to indicate its one of yours - or would that ruin the perfect reproduction theme?

Ha!  Make it a Daini lightning bolt.  That'll confuse some people.

[jringo8769]

hey this would also allow anyone to be able to restore those dials that no one has or is able to find....it is truly amazing how far we have came...hey does anyone know how the originals were made?...any literature about it....

[Adrian-VTA]

Hey Guys,

Quick update.

I got the quote back from the printer and it looks very attractive. I won't bore you too much with it, but basically the ROI point on a set of plates for a dial is 20-30 units.

The process used to make watch dials is called "pad printing". Here's a video that shows how it's done - www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS4-X_KBd7A

Most of the work is in the artwork. Getting that right is the key to the whole deal, as if you get it wrong, you lose a few hundred bucks on plates.

The 6309 dials would need three plates, one for the SEIKO text, one for the indices and one for the 200m or 150m. Another good thing about doing it this way is that you could swap out the SEIKO plate with something else, or interchange the 150m/200m.

On top of that, I'd need to get dial discs made, which I'd probably get laser cut from brass. The originals were stamped, but that is a huge investment in tooling for what would be a relatively low run job (e.g. I'm not making 10,000). 

We did investigate the option of refurbishing old discs, e.g. with a bevelled date (that is actually hard to make), and it can be done, but it's more time consuming as I'd need to strip back the plates and re-spray them.. So that's potentially on the cards as well.

As for other dials, right now anything that has applied indices or an applied SEIKO logo is too hard. I'm not sure how to get those made cost effectively at present.