Fake vintage Grand Seiko alert

[gerald]

Hi all -

Early on in my days of building up a collection of vintage Grand Seikos I fell for a few pieces that at the time I did not realise were not genuine. I've been doing some research into past Yahoo Auctions and think it is worth sharing with the general community some salient points. Firstly, as far as I am concerned, the following vintage Grand Seikos DO NOT EXIST (all steel cases unless otherwise indicated).

57 series -

43999 black dial
5722-9990 black dial
5722-9991 black dial

45 series -

4520-7000 black dial
4520-7000 blue sunburst dial
4520-8000 black dial
4520-8000 Cap Gold case, black dial
4522-7000 black dial
4522-8000 black dial
4522-8000 Cap Gold case, black dial

56 series -

5645-7010 black dial
5646-7010 black dial

61 series -

6145-8000 black dial
6145-8000 blue dial
6145-8000 Cap Gold case, black dial
6146-8000 black dial
6146-8000 blue dial
6146-8000 Cap Gold case, black dial
6155-8000 blue dial
6155-8000 black dial
6156-8000 black dial
6156-8000 blue dial
6156-8001 black dial
6156-8010 blue dial
6156-8010 black dial
6156-8030 black dial

Note - when I mention a "blue" dial, I am referring to the shiny sunburst dial, not a matte blue dial.

For 4520-7000 and 4522-7000 there is legitimate blue dial, but it is very dark, and people mistake it for black. You can find a photo of a legitimate 4520-7000 blue dial here, and a photo of a 4522-7000 with a fake black dial here.

A lot of totally innocent sellers advertise blue dialed 4520- and 4522-7000's as having black dials, so do watch out on these particular pieces. For the rest though, if you see the watch advertised as having a black dial, at the very minimum the dial has been totally refinished, and in the worst case scenario, it's a total fake.

In the last two years on Yahoo Japan, just two sellers are responsible for shifting over 200 examples of the fake-dialed watches. In total, bringing in over 26 million yen (close to a quarter of a million US dollars).

Now - there is nothing wrong in my mind with modding, or doctoring a watch. Many of the models listed actually are very attractive timepieces. However, the two sellers responsible for flooding the market with these pieces never state the watch isn't genuine - in fact, frequently advertising the pieces they sell as being in mint condition.

Caveat emptor - the only vintage Grand Seikos that were ever released with either black, or dark grey, dials, are the following:

6145-8020
6145-8050
6146-8020
5646-5010

Kind regards,


Gerald.

[bombora]

Thanks for the heads up Gerald.
As a frequent Yahoo Jp browser, i have probably seen these models and not really examined the dials in detail, but i can't say that any
really stood out as obvious fakes.  Do you think they are redone Seiko's or completely faked?

[tritto]

Thanks Gerald. Good to hear my 6146 8000 gold capped with gold dial isn't on the list.

[gerald]

Jul 22, 2017 1:54:49 GMT -8 bombora said:

Thanks for the heads up Gerald.
As a frequent Yahoo Jp browser, i have probably seen these models and not really examined the dials in detail, but i can't say that any
really stood out as obvious fakes.  Do you think they are redone Seiko's or completely faked?

Of the ones that I personally have, movements and cases seem to be OK, although the cases are usually highly polished.

My guess - and it is just a guess - is that someone is buying up knackered old examples and then refurbishing them.

What is interesting is that the two sellers seem to focus on specific models. One shifts a lot of the 57GS series, and the other the later models. There is however some overlap.

They are very good quality, I will say that. At some point in the future I will get around to doing a more forensic examination of the ones that I have against genuine pieces.

It's worth adding that the same dealers also seem to turn up a surprising number of close to identical watches that do not have the giveaway black or blue dials.

Personally, I would not buy anything from either of them, regardless of whether or not there was a chance the watch was genuine.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

[gerald]

Jul 22, 2017 3:49:01 GMT -8 tritto said:

Thanks Gerald. Good to hear my 6146 8000 gold capped with gold dial isn't on the list.

I hope it's OK, but see reply above. One of these dealers has sold five "mint" examples of that watch in the last 2 years. 5 of the 7 examples that sold for over 90,000 Yen all from the one guy.

Not quite sure about the "gold dial" description either. The markers are gold of course, but not the dial itself.

Here is a photo of a legit example -

watchdxb.com/2017/04/22/grand-seiko-6146-8000/

Kind regards,

Gerald

[tritto]

Ah, you may not have come across the gold on gold variant then Gerald.
This one came out of country Australia in a fairly grotty state with a beat up crystal so I doubt it's a product of your yahoo.jp fakers.

[gerald]

Jul 22, 2017 13:55:01 GMT -8 tritto said:

Ah, you may not have come across the gold on gold variant then Gerald.
This one came out of country Australia in a fairly grotty state with a beat up crystal so I doubt it's a product of your yahoo.jp fakers.

Wow. Now that is something new - never seen one before. I guess it's possible some examples have slipped me by with the shoddy photographs that most sellers take, but scrolling back through a couple of hundred auctions and I can't find another example.

Very nice indeed!

Kind regards,


Gerald.

[tritto]

Thanks gerald. It's nice to be able to surprise an expert with something new 😃
I've already PM'd you with a few more photos and what I know about the watch (not much). Btw, in searching for photos this morning I did come across a stainless one with a silver sunburst dial and a real beat up gold capped one that looked like it also had a gold dial, but it was in very poor condition and the crystal was rough so it was hard to be sure. This Photobucket debacle is making it hard to find pictures in old threads.
Cheers,
Tristan

[gerald]

Just a heads up to warn people off this listing from one of the usual suspects -

zenmarket.jp/auction.aspx?itemCode=t528701385

AD dial code, not an AD dial.