The true Pogue 6139-6002 or -6005?

[akable]

While the term Pogue is now unfortunately often used to describe any 6139 I do regularly see the 6139-6002 described as the "true Pogue".

My question, is there any evidence to support that this is correct? I have always believed the model was actually the 6139-6005 and not the -6002.

If you look at the original description on the Heritage Auction website it just lists this as a "6139-600x Seiko watch"

William Pogue's Seiko 6139 Watch Flown on Board the Skylab | Lot #41138 | Heritage Auctions

If you look at the photo of the original watch it has a 6139-6009T dial that I believe came on the -6005 model.



This is compared to the -6002 model that was normally supplied with the 6139-6030T dial. A simple way to differentiate these two "WATER 70m RESIST"  dials is the 17J. marking between the central hands and the Suwa logo.

If you look at the original purchase receipt it does not list the exact model of the watch but instead just states "Seiko Watch".



The watch was placed on layaway on the 10th of June 1972 and was picked up on 13th. The watch has the serial number 190945 indicating the case was produced in September 1971.

The -6005 model was produced from 1971 to 1973 for the US market while the -6002 was produced around the same time for the international market. It would seem logical that the US market -6005 would have been purchased through the Army PX at that time.

In the communications between Col. Pogue and David Bruno (the person who first  identified and confirmed the Seiko) there is no mention of the case code.

In Col. Pogue's statement that accompanied the watch at auction he does state that the watch was "rebuilt" twice but does not mention what was changed. So it is possible the watch was a -6002 and it had the dial replaced but there is no actual evidence to support this more unlikely possibility.



Consequently I can see no clear confirmation that the model is a -6002 but the evidence does point more towards the model being a -6005.

Does anyone know of any evidence that would point to the watch actually being a 6139-6002?

[HiBeat]

The 6139-6002 has the words SEIKO Automatic Chronograph at 12 o'clock.   (Teal Sunrise being an exception)
The 6139-6005 has only SEIKO Chronograph at 12 o'clock.

Therefore this is a -6005.

[akable]

I agree that the 6139-6000T dial with the "Seiko Automatic" text is from a -6005 model.

The only situation that would mean the watch is not a -6005 would be if the dial was replaced during one of the "rebuilds" that Pogue mentions in his letter.

Without any other supporting evidence for this I believe that it would be safe to say that the true Pogue is the -6005, but I was hoping that somebody may have been aware of some other evidence that shows the watch was a -6002.

It is likely that the -6002 model was once incorrectly listed for this watch and then has been repeated by many different sites as they just copy this information from other sites.

[Adrian-VTA]

From what I understood of the contemporaneous information at the time the "Pogue" discussion, maybe 10 years ago (when the letter surfaced on forums), the "True Pogue" is the -6005 and was from 1972? Certainly anything after that wouldn't have the "Resist" text on the dial. -6002 is incorrect for sure.

The fact that anything that barely resembles a chrono now is called a "Pogue" is simply sellers trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of a sale to people that don't know any better.

To use an Australian car term, it would be like calling any HQ/HX Kingwood a Monaro. Or, in slightly more modern terms, any Nissan Skyline a GT-R.

It's totally incorrect and misleading at the end of the day.

I haven't made it a secret I don't like the nicknames at all, most don't make sense. That said, I understand the way SEIKO list model numbers makes it basically a necessity. How do you explain to someone what the difference between an SRPXXX and an SRPXXX is? "Gold Turtle" or "Blue Pogue" etc makes more sense.

Dec 15, 2017 23:04:00 GMT -8 akable said:

I agree that the 6139-6000T dial with the "Seiko Automatic" text is from a -6005 model.

The only situation that would mean the watch is not a -6005 would be if the dial was replaced during one of the "rebuilds" that Pogue mentions in his letter.

Without any other supporting evidence for this I believe that it would be safe to say that the true Pogue is the -6005, but I was hoping that somebody may have been aware of some other evidence that shows the watch was a -6002.

It is likely that the -6002 model was once incorrectly listed for this watch and then has been repeated by many different sites as they just copy this information from other sites.

[pip]

I spent some time looking prior to International Pogue Day and could not find anything definitive but for all the reasons stated above I’m sure it’s a 6005. There seems to be no picture of the case back online.
And I like the nicknames if I’m honest as generalisations with the detailed model number giving more info. If someone says Silver Pogue I immediately have a picture in my mind. Same for Spork, Sumo and of course our very own Doughnut Timer!

[SeikoPsycho]

I believe it to be a 6005.

If you were going to change the dial during service why would you reuse an old faded inner bezel?

[doomguy10011]

I'm pretty sure that -6002s weren't sold in the American market. Just -6009s followed by -6005s, which leads me to believe that the original Pogue is a -6005.

[cobrajet25]

Absolutely a -6005.  Unless it has had a dial swap...which the good colonel says it hasn't.  Been correcting people all over the internet for years!

[stevenjohn]

Dec 16, 2017 1:22:30 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

From what I understood of the contemporaneous information at the time the "Pogue" discussion, maybe 10 years ago (when the letter surfaced on forums), the "True Pogue" is the -6005 and was from 1972? Certainly anything after that wouldn't have the "Resist" text on the dial. -6002 is incorrect for sure.

The fact that anything that barely resembles a chrono now is called a "Pogue" is simply sellers trying to squeeze a few more dollars out of a sale to people that don't know any better.

To use an Australian car term, it would be like calling any HQ/HX Kingwood a Monaro. Or, in slightly more modern terms, any Nissan Skyline a GT-R.

It's totally incorrect and misleading at the end of the day.

I haven't made it a secret I don't like the nicknames at all, most don't make sense. That said, I understand the way SEIKO list model numbers makes it basically a necessity. How do you explain to someone what the difference between an SRPXXX and an SRPXXX is? "Gold Turtle" or "Blue Pogue" etc makes more sense.

Dec 15, 2017 23:04:00 GMT -8 akable said:

I agree that the 6139-6000T dial with the "Seiko Automatic" text is from a -6005 model.

The only situation that would mean the watch is not a -6005 would be if the dial was replaced during one of the "rebuilds" that Pogue mentions in his letter.

Without any other supporting evidence for this I believe that it would be safe to say that the true Pogue is the -6005, but I was hoping that somebody may have been aware of some other evidence that shows the watch was a -6002.

It is likely that the -6002 model was once incorrectly listed for this watch and then has been repeated by many different sites as they just copy this information from other sites.

It gets especially hard with some models.  Take these below.  They're all 6619-8010 weekdaters.

[HiBeat]

Adrian I do not like the nicknames at all either.   That said, they are here to stay.

"Gene Kranz".. We know the watch.   So then we learn who Gene Kranz was in reverse order.     If he didn't have the watch, he would be a total unknown.    Makes no sense to me.

"John Player".  Who was that, a porn star?  I've never bothered to find out.  Don't care. 

"Williard".  A Charlie Sheen character? Really?   So then why don't we call the 6309-7040 the "Mick Jagger" since we have all seen the photo.

I could go on, but I won't.

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2017 9:00:15 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

Adrian I do not like the nicknames at all either.   That said, they are here to stay.

"Gene Kranz".. We know the watch.   So then we learn who Gene Kranz was in reverse order.     If he didn't have the watch, he would be a total unknown.    Makes no sense to me.

"John Player".  Who was that, a porn star?  I've never bothered to find out.  Don't care. 

"Williard".  A Charlie Sheen character? Really?   So then why don't we call the 6309-7040 the "Mick Jagger" since we have all seen the photo.

I could go on, but I won't.

John Player was a tobacco giant. With his millions, he fielded a team of race cars that was very successful in the 80s.
As to why his name is associated with Seiko, it's probably just a product endorsement that went on the side of one of the cars.

[ollie23]

Dec 16, 2017 9:48:48 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

Dec 16, 2017 9:00:15 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

Adrian I do not like the nicknames at all either.   That said, they are here to stay.

"Gene Kranz".. We know the watch.   So then we learn who Gene Kranz was in reverse order.     If he didn't have the watch, he would be a total unknown.    Makes no sense to me.

"John Player".  Who was that, a porn star?  I've never bothered to find out.  Don't care. 

"Williard".  A Charlie Sheen character? Really?   So then why don't we call the 6309-7040 the "Mick Jagger" since we have all seen the photo.

I could go on, but I won't.

John Player was a tobacco giant. With his millions, he fielded a team of race cars that was very successful in the 80s.
As to why his name is associated with Seiko, it's probably just a product endorsement that went on the side of one of the cars.

JPS fags (cigarettes) were packaged in black and gold, the same balance of colors as the 6138 8039. Its a very tenuous link but I can see why it happened. More here:
wornandwound.com/watches-and-f1-seiko-6138-8039-john-player-special/

[ollie23]

[ollie23]

We digress......

It was a 6139 6005 in my opinion. I can’t see a dial swap having happened.

Regarding this nickname I don’t have a huge problem with any 6139 600* with yellow (gold) dial being called a Pogue. To a layman any differences are pretty tiny.

[saul]

Dec 16, 2017 9:00:15 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

"Williard".  A Charlie Sheen character? Really?   So then why don't we call the 6309-7040 the "Mick Jagger" since we have all seen the photo.

Really Jon?  World of difference between Charlie Sheen and MARTIN SHEEN!    For that matter a world of difference between Platoon and Apocalypse Now...

[HiBeat]

Zeke & Ollie, you two gents just shattered my naivety. I was quite at peace thinking he was probably a porn star.

I like the color combination comparison.

[HiBeat]

Dec 16, 2017 12:36:37 GMT -8 saul said:

Dec 16, 2017 9:00:15 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

"Williard".  A Charlie Sheen character? Really?   So then why don't we call the 6309-7040 the "Mick Jagger" since we have all seen the photo.

Really Jon?  World of difference between Charlie Sheen and MARTIN SHEEN!    For that matter a world of difference between Platoon and Apocalypse Now...

WINNER :winner:

[rob3rto]

youtu.be/orZYP7O1s_w

[cobrajet25]

Dec 16, 2017 11:44:42 GMT -8 ollie23 said:

Dec 16, 2017 9:48:48 GMT -8 @penguinbce said:

John Player was a tobacco giant. With his millions, he fielded a team of race cars that was very successful in the 80s.
As to why his name is associated with Seiko, it's probably just a product endorsement that went on the side of one of the cars.

JPS fags (cigarettes) were packaged in black and gold, the same balance of colors as the 6138 8039. Its a very tenuous link but I can see why it happened. More here:
wornandwound.com/watches-and-f1-seiko-6138-8039-john-player-special/

I coined the term "John Player Special" to describe the black/gold 6138-8039 13 years ago on the old, OLD forum.  No lie.  Link is below.

I didn't call the watch "The John Player Special Seiko", I just noted that this color combination seemed to be pretty popular back in the mid-'70s and implied that Seiko may have taken notice.  Despite what W&W says, there is absolutely no other link between JPS, Formula One, and this model other than that.  Honestly, when I posted it I didn't know what JPS was other than the race team since I live in the States and their cigarettes are not sold here.

That's it!  It was just an offhanded comment about the color combo.  Didn't know it would become a nickname.

"John Player Special"

[pip]

Dec 16, 2017 15:30:07 GMT -8 cobrajet25 said:

Dec 16, 2017 11:44:42 GMT -8 ollie23 said:

JPS fags (cigarettes) were packaged in black and gold, the same balance of colors as the 6138 8039. Its a very tenuous link but I can see why it happened. More here:
wornandwound.com/watches-and-f1-seiko-6138-8039-john-player-special/

I coined the term "John Player Special" to describe the black/gold 6138-8039 13 years ago on the old, OLD forum.  No lie.  Link is below.

I didn't call the watch "The John Player Special Seiko", I just noted that this color combination seemed to be pretty popular back in the mid-'70s and implied that Seiko may have taken notice.  Despite what W&W says, there is absolutely no other link between JPS, Formula One, and this model other than that.  Honestly, when I posted it I didn't know what JPS was other than the race team since I live in the States and their cigarettes are not sold here.

That's it!  It was just an offhanded comment about the color combo.  Didn't know it would become a nickname.

"John Player Special"

As well as being amazed at seeing the post that started the name, I’m amazed that 13 years ago people were buying bits off of Ramon! Mans been going forever! Bet he had fewer clients and lower prices back then.