6117-6400 w/o lume - they are legit!

[dapellegrini]

This thread is to collect/share any information on the possibly original Seiko World Time 6117-6400 watches without lume.

Here's the list I have cataloged (4 as of this writing)

seikoworldtime.azurewebsites.net/dataView?modelNo=6117&handLume=false&dialLume=false&casebackManufactureCode=japan%20f&thumbs=true

And here are the photos:

Example 1:
Black dial, Dec 1974




Example 2
White dial, December 19




Example 3
Black dial, Feb 1975






Example 4
Black Dial, Feb 1975





These hands and dials were obviously made without a place to put lume - and otherwise look authentic to me.  Curious that they are all grouped in the same 3 month period (so far)...

[dapellegrini]

So far the examples are all 6400's, no 6409's....

Here's where they sit among other cataloged examples - showing many normal lumed versions were also produced at the same time

[dapellegrini]

Actually, everything in that 3 month window is a 6400, all Japan F ...

[dapellegrini]

Anecdotally as a kid growing up in the US in the 1980's, and known for disassembling things that I found interesting, my parent's didn't trust me with any watch that had "radio active" lume.  I don't know if that was a common sentiment or just my crazy parents...  It was all Swatches and eventually Timex Indiglo's for me.

[HiBeat]

To use your own logic, for any example where "N=1" and there are no print ads to support it,  it cannot be documented as official or genuine Seiko.  Replacement hands abound and work in the old days was not expected to preserve anything "proper" and no one really cared much.

[dapellegrini]

HiBeat - I agree with your point about originality not being a primary concern in the past with these (and other) Seiko watches.  I honestly appreciate your feedback, and am probably reading too much into it - but feel compelled to clarify my logic / methods - which to be fair has evolved along with the dataset I am working with

Catalog and ad scans are very helpful, but as you point out, do not accurately document all original versions.  I wish.  I hope you or others don't think that I am being dismissive of certain configurations because there is no catalog proof. Perhaps my caution to create more misinformation could be interpreted that way, but that is not my intention.

For instance, the black dial/gray 24-hour ring variant was on my "unknown/doubtfully original" list initially (as you noted, no scans to validate it), whereas now I am convinced that is a legit setup, to the point of spending my own money to acquire a good example.  This based on data, specifically comparing seemingly unrelated attributes across many watches (289 of this model so far) and finding similarities...  Using this example:

• This dial variant runs the entire production length - from 1969 through 1976
• Around 20% of the cataloged black dials are of this variation
• All of these are 6400's - no 6409's
• This subset appears with WORLD TIME at both 6-o'clock and 12-o'clock, with the 6-o'clock examples all dating before 1971 - like the larger data set for this model
• The details on the dials and hands seem to be accurate (dial code, lume application, SEIKO logo, 24-hour ring font and text, etc)

If people were swapping this dial in as an aftermarket fix / replacement, points 3 and 4 would likely not line up, certainly not as the dataset gets bigger.  To me, being able to make an educated assertion based on data that others can validate themselves, seems the best way to agree on likely authenticity, especially in absence of scans or original owners.  No one has to take my word for it.

That's what I am hoping to do with the non-lume versions here.

FWIW, my opinion at this stage is that these are very likely authentic/original (a reversal of my prior stance), but I think a 5th and 6th data point would make the argument stronger.  A few more data points that also line up with sub-model number, production window, dials, matching hands, etc I think will help solidify things.

[cobrajet25]

If the lumeless dials have a unique dial code then that is proof enough for me.  Do any lumed examples have the same dial codes as these unlumed examples?  I know for a fact I have white World Time models with no lume.

There is certainly a market for world time watches with no lume.  I bought a Bell-Matic one time that had all of the lume deliberately scraped off.  The seller told me he got the watch from a friend of his who was the XO on a nuclear submarine and the lume on the watch was setting off radiation detectors.  He had to have the lume removed to keep wearing it.

[dapellegrini]

cobrajet25 - yes the dial codes are different.  On standard lumed versions the white dial code ends in 6420T, the black dial code ends in 6400T.  These non-lumed dials end in 6424T for the white one and 6404T for the black one.

These 4 examples are from Dec 1974 - Feb 1975, so a small window (so far).  They are all 6400's sub-models, no 6409's.

I'm starting to feel pretty good about these being legit as well, and I really enjoy proving these kinds of things out, where I started out quite skeptical and am now very excited about these ones, and on the hunt for more examples to round out the dataset.  I visualize trying to plot out a circle with the number of data points that line up - with only 4 so far my circle looks like a square...  but getting there.

[dapellegrini]

Apr 4, 2022 21:40:00 GMT -8 cobrajet25 said:

There is certainly a market for world time watches with no lume.  I bought a Bell-Matic one time that had all of the lume deliberately scraped off.  The seller told me he got the watch from a friend of his who was the XO on a nuclear submarine and the lume on the watch was setting off radiation detectors.  He had to have the lume removed to keep wearing it.

Interesting.  My step dad was also in the navy, a nuclear engineer on a submarine and against lume in watches for kids.  He once told me that wrist watches were "not ok" in the "nuclear power parts" of a submarine - because of the potentially bad things that could happen if one fell off.  He tells me they used mechanical pocket watches for this reason.

[dapellegrini]

And here is #5.  Another black dial - code 6404T, no lume (and in pretty bad shape).  Feb 1975

www.ebay.com/itm/325129356883

[inboost]

Apr 8, 2022 14:00:54 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

And here is #5.  Another black dial - code 6404T, no lume (and in pretty bad shape).  Feb 1975

www.ebay.com/itm/325129356883

But what about the hands?

[dapellegrini]

And here is #6 - also a "52" - these were definitely a thing and very rare - but no one seems to care....  This one might have a salvageable dial and bezel:

www.ebay.com/itm/385159039893