|
|
Post by Groundhog66 on Apr 20, 2014 9:41:09 GMT -8
What years/models were they issued? My 6139-6009 from Nov '69 is notched, so I assume just the earlier models?  |
|
|
|
Post by seikoholic on Apr 20, 2014 10:28:32 GMT -8
the "resist" 6139-6009 is the only non-Proof 6139 you'll see them on. All others will be early "proof" marked pieces. For a long time, people said that the 6139-6009 "resist" with the notch case was a fabrication, not real. I'm proud to say that AFAIK I'm the one who located documentation proving it was a real model:  |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 20, 2014 14:44:07 GMT -8
The Resist models used the notched case up until and through July of 70' I have two March examples not to far apart in serial numbers and one July example.   |
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357 
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 20, 2014 22:03:21 GMT -8
Okay, here is the way it works. Starting around March, 1969, Seiko began producing the 6139-600x with two case numbers...6139-6000 and 6139-6009. The -6000 came with either a "Proof" Speed-Timer dial or a "Proof" Chronograph Automatic dial. Both variants had "the notch", the "two-piece" seconds hand (a term I coined in about 2005), and the 6139A...21J for Speed-timers and 17J for all others. The -6009 was intended exclusively for the US market, and as such was marked with "Resist" on the caseback (due to a 1968 court case) AND on the 17j Automatic dial. These early US-bound 6139s were not marked "Resistant" like later watches, mind you, but "Resist". Same as the dial. No -6009 caseback, no matter when it was made, will be marked Proof, and that in and of itself legitimizes the matching "Resist" dial found on these models. If you'll notice, ALL 1969-70 Seiko models with case numbers ending in "9" are marked Resist, not Proof. Pretty sure I was the first to catch that, and it was years ago. One-upsmanship is really not what I am trying to do here, but this info all goes back a ways...  www.network54.com/Forum/78440/message/1231210060/Here+is+an+interesting+watch%26gt%3Bwww.network54.com/Forum/78440/message/1128249187/This+one---%26gt%3B%26gt%3B%26gt%3B+pic! www.network54.com/Forum/78440/message/1120464475/It+is+the+date+of+manufacture+more+than+the+case+number+that+determines%26gt%3BSometime in 1970 the -6001 case number was introduced, but I am not sure why. It seems to generally have the same characteristics as a -6000. ALL early production -600x cases have "the notch", whether they are a -6000, -6001, or -6009. They should also have the "two-piece" seconds hand and a 6139A. But this seems to have been changed around early 1971. Sometime in 1970/1971, Seiko discontinued the -6000, the -6001, and the -6009. They were replaced with the -6002 and -6005. At this time, these watches lost "the notch", the "two-piece" seconds hand, any "proof" markings, and the 6139A. The -6002 features the Chronograph Automatic dial, and replaced the -6000/1 (which also had the Chronograph Automatic dial). The -6005 has the 17J Automatic dial and replaced the -6009 (which also had the 17J Automatic dial). If you look, the dial number is the same on the 6139-6005 as it was on the 6139-6009 since both models were intended for the US market. Appropriately, these dials are still marked "6139-6009T", whereas the rest-of-world models all use the "6139-6030T" dial code. At the same time, casebacks on all models were changed from "Water Resist" or "Waterproof" to "Water Resistant". As far as I am concerned, a '69-'70 6139-600x should have "the notch", a '71-up watch should not. Of course, a little overlap is to be expected. I'd accept a late '70 watch with either a notch or no notch. The old original Network 54 SCF is still up, though nobody can post there. If you guys fancy a trip through the vintage Seiko timeline, go there and search for your favorite models and you can see how all this information came together and what early collectors were thinking 10-15 years ago. It's a lot of fun! www.network54.com/Forum/78440/search |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 21, 2014 2:50:06 GMT -8
Aaron, You have compiled some very accurate information on the 6139-600x series. I was also very familiar with the proof verses resist markings in the US market and you are correct. I have also checked extensively and have determined, which has some possibility of error due to no hard facts, and only observation, that the US market notched case resist models changed to un-notched by April of 70'. I don't recall ever seeing an original US market notched case resist after March of 70'. Now, with all that being said, and all the info you've compiled, What say you about the 6139-6007??  |
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 21, 2014 3:19:46 GMT -8
What say you about the 6139-6007?? Eeeeerrrrrrmmmm...it replaced the -6001? The -6001 and -6007 are strange to me. Very seldom seen, and I am not quite sure why they exist? Thoughts? Not sure about your assessment of the notched -6009 not extending past April, 1970. Here is an old ad for one that appears to be notched and made in June? Matter of fact, I want to say I have a -6009 made 3/70 that is notched? I will have to dig around for it.  www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/13363-fs-seiko-6139-6009-excellent-195-sold.html |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 21, 2014 3:40:38 GMT -8
What say you about the 6139-6007?? Eeeeerrrrrrmmmm...it replaced the -6001? The -6001 and -6007 are strange to me. Very seldom seen, and I am not quite sure why they exist? Thoughts? Not sure about your assessment of the notched -6009 not extending past April, 1970. Here is an old ad for one that appears to be notched and made in June? Matter of fact, I want to say I have a -6009 made 3/70 that is notched? I will have to dig around for it. www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/13363-fs-seiko-6139-6009-excellent-195-sold.htmlWell, Looks like I stand corrected on the ending month for the notched case resist 6009 being March of 70'. I agree with you on the 6007's. They are as limited as the 6001's and very seldom seen. I think I've had one of each out of several dozen 6139-600x's. It would be interesting to know the market area they were intended for and the history behind them. Maybe a limited edition for Monks in Tibet? |
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 21, 2014 3:46:09 GMT -8
Eeeeerrrrrrmmmm...it replaced the -6001? The -6001 and -6007 are strange to me. Very seldom seen, and I am not quite sure why they exist? Thoughts? Not sure about your assessment of the notched -6009 not extending past April, 1970. Here is an old ad for one that appears to be notched and made in June? Matter of fact, I want to say I have a -6009 made 3/70 that is notched? I will have to dig around for it. www.thewatchsite.com/8-seiko-citizen-trading-post/13363-fs-seiko-6139-6009-excellent-195-sold.htmlWell, Looks like I stand corrected on the ending month for the notched case resist 6009 being March of 70'. I agree with you on the 6007's. They are as limited as the 6001's and very seldom seen. I think I've had one of each out of several dozen 6139-600x's. It would be interesting to know the market area they were intended for and the history behind them. Maybe a limited edition for Monks in Tibet? LMAO! While you were thinking of Tibet, I was thinking they may have been intended for some small island off the coast of Malta! :rofl: Wherever they went, it was a very small market. Personally, I have never been able to make out any difference between a -6000 and a -6001 or a -6005 and a -6007. I'd be interested to know what daywheels they came with. |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 21, 2014 3:50:09 GMT -8
Another interesting side note: I think the notched case resist models with the two piece second hands are as rare if not rarer then the notched case Proof models, excluding Speedtimer models, due to the US being a smaller market area compared to the distribution of the proof models throughout the rest of the world during the same time period.
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 21, 2014 3:54:41 GMT -8
Another interesting side note: I think the notched case resist models with the two piece second hands are as rare if not rarer then the notched case Proof models, excluding Speedtimer models, due to the US being a smaller market area compared to the distribution of the proof models throughout the rest of the world during the same time period. I'd tend to agree with you. Though the notched case and two-piece seconds pretty much went hand in hand. One is generally not seen without the other. But, for the reasons you mention, the -6009 is less often seen than it's rest-of-world brothers. It was limited both by production span and distribution. |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 21, 2014 3:58:55 GMT -8
Well, Looks like I stand corrected on the ending month for the notched case resist 6009 being March of 70'. I agree with you on the 6007's. They are as limited as the 6001's and very seldom seen. I think I've had one of each out of several dozen 6139-600x's. It would be interesting to know the market area they were intended for and the history behind them. Maybe a limited edition for Monks in Tibet? LMAO! While you were thinking of Tibet, I was thinking they may have been intended for some small island off the coast of Malta! :rofl: Wherever they went, it was a very small market. Personally, I have never been able to make out any difference between a -6000 and a -6001 or a -6005 and a -6007. I'd be interested to know what daywheels they came with. I'll have to have a look to see what day wheels mine have. Apples to apples they're all the same watch but my 6139-600x set is incomplete until I acquire the Yellow Proof Speedtimer version and the Silver Proof version. The Insanity continues and the hunt goes on. |
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Apr 21, 2014 4:02:19 GMT -8
So Aaron, Are you up early for work or in from a late night??
For me it's off to work. Talk to you later.........
Tom
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 21, 2014 4:17:55 GMT -8
So Aaron, Are you up early for work or in from a late night?? For me it's off to work. Talk to you later......... Tom Lol...I am an insomniac/night owl. And I am in the same boat you are as far as my collection. Still haven't been able to snag a nice yellow -6000 Speed-Timer. It seems like most of the ones I have seen have discoloration/flaking around the subdial. Hard to find mint. The nicest one I ever remember seeing went to former fellow SCFer Ty Maitland years and years ago. It is the one seen in the "How To Buy A 6139-600x" Guide that's been bouncing around the internet for about the last 8-10 years. We got into a bidding war over it and drove the price up to just over $200...a ton of $ for one at the time. Those were the days! I have only one silver dial, and it's a Resist. They were always rare, but have also gotten very spendy as of late. TTYL! |
|
|
|
Post by Groundhog66 on Apr 21, 2014 14:36:02 GMT -8
So much great information included here, thank you guys!
|
|
|
|
Post by seikoholic on Apr 21, 2014 19:40:35 GMT -8
I remember when I found the ad I posted up above. I put it up, and included an enlarged scan of the 6139. A number of heavy hitters at that time said the 6139-6009 "resist" was a "fantasy piece" or a franken. "Notch only went with proof, period!" one person said. Then I found this ad. I'm sure your info goes way back, but not everyone got the memo, clearly.
|
|
cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
|
Post by cobrajet25 on Apr 21, 2014 20:30:26 GMT -8
I remember when I found the ad I posted up above. I put it up, and included an enlarged scan of the 6139. A number of heavy hitters at that time said the 6139-6009 "resist" was a "fantasy piece" or a franken. "Notch only went with proof, period!" one person said. Then I found this ad. I'm sure your info goes way back, but not everyone got the memo, clearly. That's absolutely true, and it is always great to have any kind of picture documentation from Seiko to definitively back up what are mostly educated guesses on our part. Seiko does not release information like this, which makes nailing down what they did back then contentious and difficult. This ad sealed the deal, and I don't think anyone made the connection with this ad and the Notch Case/Resist Dial before you did. Debating these things is how we hammer out the facts. I remember back when I suggested the "two-piece" seconds hand was an original, early part. Up until then, many people thought this part was aftermarket since it was seen on so few examples of the 6138/9, and the hand could still be ordered as a replacement part from Borel (shows how long ago THAT was). There was one fellow who simply refused to believe it, even when I put up scans of a Factory Service Manual showing how to ADJUST this very hand! He also was indeed a "heavy hitter"...it was the same fellow who wrote the "How To Buy A 6139-600x" guide v1.0 in about 2005. Not everyone "gets the memo", that is true. Worse yet, memos tend to get lost when we all switch "offices". A lot of stuff simply stays on old outdated forums...never to be brought to the new ones. |
|
