"The List" of Collectible Chronographs

[dasher]

Here's that list I was referring to in my Time sonar post:


chronocollect 





Dan

[Groundhog66]

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[dasher]

Try now...

Sometimes Flickr really honks me off....



D.

[Groundhog66]

Aug 20, 2014 6:46:54 GMT -8 dasher said:

Try now...

Sometimes Flickr really honks me off....



D.

[ninja01]

Yeah, that looks like one of my old ones there!!

And remember, that is just from a certain perspective. Go to another "market" [Philippines, Japan, ...] or timeframe [that was early 2000s; availability could very well be different now!] and the statistics could very likely change.

But some general principles likely have NOT changed ... like 7018s & 6138-7000 & 6138-800x still seem VERY hard to find, especially in really nice shape. Citizen 5700 calibre hand-wind chronostops also very hard to find. That has not changed in my experience.

[seikoholic]

7018s are really very nice.  I restored one last fall and got to own it a whole 14 hours or so before someone pushed money into my hands for it.  Thought at the time that it was too much to turn down, found out I probably undersold it.  

[ninja01]

Following is the Complete text of the 2 "chronograph rarity observations" posts I did "way back". I found the files on my system just now (the files are dated in July & September of 2002 respectively).

1st Post

Perhaps this should go in the FAQ section, but I'll leave the decision up to the moderator...

As a collector primarily of the Seiko & Citizen 60s-70s "1st" & "2nd" generation automatic chronos, I got to wondering about the relative rarity of each calibre and of the various case & dial styles. Since Seiko won't give out production data (not sure of Citizen), I have to rely on what I see offered for sale various places or up for display on various Japanese watch collection websites. I then infer the relative rarity of each model based upon how often I've seen it over the years I've looked. The logical 'flaw' in this method could be that certain models are around in peoples hands BUT just not put up for sale or 'show' on the net.

From my own informal research in this way, and assuming that frequency of occurence on the net is a good approximation for relative rarity, I come to the following conclusions:

SEIKO:
Calibres available: 6139A (17j), 6139B (21 jewel), 6138A (21j), 6138B (23j), 7015A, 7016, 7017A, and 7018A

1. The rarest models in my experience are ANY one with a calibre 7018, 7015, 23 jewel 6138B, or 21 jewel 6139 (with jewel count marked on dial - I'm not sure of rarity of those that are externally UNmarked as most 6139 sellers don't explicitly say the jewel count). I include in this category anything in a "Timesonar" style case (calibres 7015 & 7018 with expo back & possibly a see-thru dial) AND anything with both a sliderule under the glass & external tach bezel (models 7015-7010, 7017-6020, & 7017-6050). Also, in this category are any 6138 or 6139 with ALL of the following on the dial "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer" and a 70Meter Waterproof indicator. Another one in this category is a 6138-0020 (that has the case style known as 'helmet', 'flightmaster' or 'volcano'). In each case I've only seen 1 - 3 of each on the net (either in a collection or for sale) over the last 2 years.

2. Next rarest are 6138-7000 Sliderule, any 7016, and any 7017 (other than the 7017-6050). However, the 7017s seem 'rarer' than the 7016s. Also in this category, ANY 6138 or 6139 with "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer", but NO waterproof indicator on dial. Examples are 6139-7060, 6139-8010, 6139-8040, & 6139-8002. Also in this rarity category is 6139-7080 (with octagonal case, but regular dial variety). NOTE: Some preliminary research suggests that calibre 6139 watches with the "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer" dial variety sometimes have 21j movements (even though jewel count is not stated externally), but those with 'regular' dials (Chronograph Automatic) always have 17j. In these cases I've seen only a maximum of a dozen of each pictured in 2 years. To put this category in perspective, the items listed here are seen about as often as the 1960s era manual "Crown Chrono" using Calibres 5717A, 5718A, or 5719A.

3. Next rarest are 6138 & 6139 models with only "Seiko Speedtimer" on dial (such as 6139-8050 with square subregister also) and also the 6138-004x Bullhead with Black dial & Blue subregisters. The 6138-0030 with "Chronograph Automatic" dial seems also to be in this category. Generally a max of about 2 dozen seen in 2 years.

4. More commonly are 6138 Brown/Gold dial Bullheads with just "Seiko Chronograph Automatic" on dial and also 6138 models like the 6138-3000, 6138-8030 (conical, hidden lug case), and the BigSmall Eye (-0011 & -0017). I'd also fit into this category any chrono that has the waterproof indicator on the dial in addition to the standard "Seiko Chronograph Automatic" marking. One more dial variety I'd put into this category is the 6139 with only "Seiko Automatic" and a "17j" directly beneath the center spindle (& above the subdial).

5. Beyond that I regularly see a good number of 6139s like the 6139-8020, 6139-7100 ('volcano' or 'helmet' case), & various 6139-60xx styles (where 'x' represents any digit). The 6139-60xx models with the red & blue external tach bezel actually appear quite common (although generally are quite in demand). In this category, they generally just say "Seiko Chronograph Automatic" on the dial.


CITIZEN

Calibres available to my knowlege are the 5700 (actually I think this is manual), the 8100A (equivalent to a Seiko 7018A), and the 8110A (like a Seiko 6138B). The 8100A & 8110A both have 23 jewels & Flyback complication. I'm not sure if 5700 has Flyback, but it has 21 jewels.

1. Rarest appear to be 5700 RecordMaster, particularly the "Rally Custom" having a black external tach bezel AND a sliderule under the glass. Also, any 8100A. Outside of Japanese collection websites, I've seen 1 5700 "Rally Custom" offered for sale in about 2 years on the web. I only once saw offered during that same time 1 other 5700 (with conventional style case/dial - no slidrule, no tach bezel - & needing mechanical work) and 3 8100s (1 of which appeared to be a mixture of dial & tach bezel from 2 different styles, another was in poor physical condition, and the 3rd had black coated case & black dial close to mint condition with an original rubber strap & mint black buckle).

2. Next rarest are various non-bullhead style 8110A chronos. There are some that have an external enamel tach bezel & have the general appearance of a boys sized Omega Speedmaster. Others have octagonal cases & hexagonal subregisters, others are more square cased with fancy shaped chrome bezels. I generally see a handful of each for sale in a year.

3. Believe it or not, the 8110A bullhead styles actually seem to show up most often for sale, though the hexagonal bullhead case style is rarer than the 'rounded' bullhead. Another more common one has a somehat 'volcano' shaped case and an inner rotating bezel (marked in 60 increments) with a separate crown @ 10 o'clock to turn it.


FINALLY: since these conclusions are based just on a few years of personal observation of "what shows up" on the net, it is subject to error. But, in any case, I think it gives a good idea of how hard it would be for a collector to actually get his hands on a particular model of vintage chrono.

2nd Post

Earlier I posted my observations on relative rarity of various calibres, case styles, and dial varieties of the Seiko 613x & 701x series and Citizen 5700, 8100, & 8110 series of auto chronographs of 1969 thru late 1970s. Today, I'm discussing several other factors that could add to the rarity (or at least availability in the market) of a particular chronograph.

1. Day-display Language variants

These Seiko & Citizen chronos had both a day & date display, with the day having a quite useful feature - dual language modes. On each watch, you have the choice of displaying date in one of 2 languages. In my experience, one of the languages is ALWAYS English. The 'alternate' language can be one of the following: Roman Numerals, Spanish, French, Chinese, Japanese, Arabic (Persian?), and (I've been told) German. In some cases the alternate language goes along with the dial variety. For example most Seiko 6138 & 6139 models use Japanese along with the "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer" dial variety. In other cases, like the 6138-7000 Sliderule, there seems to be a single dial style, and the language used as the alternate MAY be related to the chrono hand color.

I don't have enough info to say for sure, but it seems that models with Chinese & Arabic could be the rarest. I also think Japanese is less common than the European languages & Roman Numerals (so far, I've only seen Japanese used with the "Seiko Speedtimer" or "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer" dial types).

2. Day/Date "rollover" time

I have almost no data on this, but every chrono in my collection EXCEPT ONE, starts turning over the date for midnight. The one exception is a Citizen 8110 with an Arabic (Persian?) alternate date language that I bought from someone in Israel. My understanding of many Middle East cultures is that they consider the end of the day to be sunset rather than midnight. This particular watch starts turning over the date for 6 o'clock (a typical sunset time) rather than 12.

3a. Bracelet buckle variety - Seiko only

This is very much connected with dial variety. Most buckles (original to the watch) I've seen just have "Seiko" on the buckle. When the chrono has the rarer "Speedtimer" or "Seiko 5 SPORTS Speedtimer" dial variety, the buckle has "Speedtimer" or the "5 SPORTS" imprinted on it. Thus, these buckles are consequently rarer as well.

3b. Bracelet links & original straps - Seiko only

Original straps/buckles from this time appear to be quite hard to find in the market (probably due to people wearing out the original strap & just throwing it out). In my collection I have only 1 with original mid-70s style leather strap & buckle (a Seiko 7016-5020 bought from a watchmakers "stock" liquidation). The strap is typical 70s styling (for those of us that remember those days!) - it has several squarish/oval "vent holes" cut into it on each side of the watch. There are also Seiko metal bracelets made in this design as well (I usually see them on 6139-802x models).

Original bracelets of various designs can be seen, but regarding relative rarity I can only guess. However, the link styles usually seen along with the "Speedtimer" & "Seiko 5 SPORTS" buckles are less common. Another one I see rarely is one I have that came with a Seiko 6139-8029 (again a liquidation of a watchmakers "stock") - it has the regular "Seiko" buckle, but has small, somewhat angular teardrop shaped individual links. There are also a couple of other styles made with long metal links adjacent to the watch, giving the effect of a rigid steel bracelet when viewed on the wrist.

4. Unusual bezels (internal and external)

I touched on this in the 1st posting by discussing the rare sliderule bezels. However, there are some other varieties around that also are seen less frequently than the standard tach bezel (internal or external) or internal rotating bezel marked in 60 increments. For Seiko, I infrequently see pulsimeter bezels or sports timing bezels (for basketball and soccer). For Citizen, the external enamel tach bezel is much less commonly seen than the styles with a plain (metal or synthetic material) external bezel.

5. Dial/Subdial colors

In a few cases, primarily Seiko 6139-60xx 'diver' chronos with the blue & red external tach bezels, I've seen among the varieties a couple that show up infrequently. I've seen 1 for sale with a Silver color dial (and date in Chinese), and a handful with gold dial, but black subdial and thin baton hour markers (rather than the typical all-gold dial with squarish hour markers). Another case that comes to mind is the 6138-001x BigSmall Eye. Most have black dial with silvery subs, but I once saw a picture of one with a primarily GOLD color dial. I don't know if that was a legitimate Seiko factory dial or some kind of 'custom' job or redial, but it did look authentic Seiko design to me [NOTE: I now think it was NOT 'legit']. Among the Seiko 6139-802x varieties, the ones with the chocolate brown dial could be somewhat rarer than other color schemes.

6. Condition

While not an indicator of actual rarity in production, we can't ignore the fact that most older watches are worn rather than having been bought new & placed in a collection immediately. Therefore, the closer one is to "original condition", the harder it is to find. Recently, I've seen someone selling out the stock of a watchmaker (or jewelry store) on a large auction site & among the stock he is selling off are several Seiko & Citizens that appear to be in NOS/Mint condition with original boxes. From the pictures they truly appear to be unused models rather than "restorations". While there are many nice restorations, I personally would prefer a specimen in "original" condition to a restoration. One reason is that Seiko steel cases usually have a particular factory applied "texture" to them. Restorers often cannot (or do not know enough to) match that original texture & the watch comes out with a different "feel". Of course, this may only matter to a "purist", but if you think about coin collecting - a coin with the original mint luster is much more valuable than one that has some wear and had been polished in an attempt to look uncirculated.

Again, I'm curious to see if you have experienced the same statistics in your search for various models in your own collecting or work.

[dasher]

What an excellent bit of research - thanks so much for summarizing it so well!

I've been trying to do my own bit of tracking on a certain few Seiko models mostly by creating an Excel spreadsheet and tracking dial, case back, serial numbers (especially serial numbers) and other information from eBay auctions sold and unsold and forum photos from SCWF and WS.

I'm trying to track 6105 divers, 6139 chronos (tough task!), Bell-Matics, and Sporks.  As you can guess, the Spork list is the shortest.

Thanks again for the summary!!!!


Dan