Thomas
WIS
Nun Gut
Posts: 1,480 
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Post by Thomas on Oct 8, 2014 15:19:48 GMT -8
Hello, and welcome to another vintage Seiko unveiling. I bought this one on a bit of a whim, I was home sick taking cough medicine, and stumbled onto it at a popular auction site, with just minutes to go. I put in a bid and won! Here is the padded envelope that arrived from the East Coast of the U.S. Inside was this nice old red watch box. I was saddened to see the tape however, as I knew what was about to happen. :-/ Yup, just as I feared, taking the tape off ruined that nice old box.  A sad moment. Inside the box I see some crumpled newspaper. And under that, a wad of paper towels wrapped with red duct tape. Inside the paper towels was this nice blue Seiko on a bright red pillow. Damn, I was Paul had not used that tape on the box, this would have made a cute watch box. Looking closer, this is a 1972 hand-wind, Hi-Beat (36,000 bph) King Seiko 4502-7001, with a handsome blue dial. It is very attractive but I am afraid it has been polished to get it looking like this. The seller said he thought it had not been polished "because the case lines wear still sharp". but looking at the case-back, it seem obvious this has been polished quite a bit. At le3ast the KS logo still looks good, and I have been looking for one like this. The crown side... And the other side. The case lines do look pretty sharp, but I am not very expert at this type of evaluation. Here is a return to the dial, showing off the nicely beveled hands with the brushed center stripe and sunburst style blue dial texture. Clean in there too. Well, I had to try it on, and I think I'll wear it to work tomorrow. It is on a newer Seiko "Midnight Blue" strap that works well with the blue dial. Amazingly smooth second hand, I'll have to see how accurate it is tomorrow. Thanks for looking! - Thomas |
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Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Oct 8, 2014 15:26:29 GMT -8
Don't ever tell me where you live....Really nice piece, love it!
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Post by ninja01 on Oct 8, 2014 15:49:41 GMT -8
Nice job capturing that one! I guess it does help to be drugged when on eBay!!  You saw my 4500 recently so I won't re-post the pics here. Yes indeed, Seiko blue dials - they sure did a great job on those!!' Enjoy!! |
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69ChevelleSS
Is a Permanent Fixture
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Post by 69ChevelleSS on Oct 8, 2014 16:31:35 GMT -8
Another beauty . . . congrats!
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Post by croolis on Oct 9, 2014 11:22:30 GMT -8
Congrats Thomas  that is a really nice KS! The blue dial makes it quite rare and the 45KS models are, in my opinion, superior to the 56KS. If it's running well it should deliver great accuracy and stability too. As regards polishing, the wear on the case back seems to be due to normal use and I tend to believe the seller that this watch is untouched. The polished finish on the case is, as far as I know, factory original. Dial and hands seem pristine.. I really like this watch |
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Post by seemonkey on Oct 9, 2014 11:32:13 GMT -8
I agree!That is one beautiful watch!
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sdoocms
Is a Permanent Fixture
Carl
Posts: 5,296
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Post by sdoocms on Oct 9, 2014 11:36:44 GMT -8
Congrats on a great find.
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iwaddell
Timekeeper
Between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Posts: 758
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Post by iwaddell on Oct 9, 2014 11:48:31 GMT -8
Nice... Got to love the 70's for the dial colour. |
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Post by jim1963 on Oct 9, 2014 12:02:56 GMT -8
Fabulous Thomas  congrats mate |
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Thomas
WIS
Nun Gut
Posts: 1,480
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Post by Thomas on Oct 9, 2014 13:27:42 GMT -8
The blue dial makes it quite rare and the 45KS models are, in my opinion, superior to the 56KS. If it's running well it should deliver great accuracy and stability too. As regards polishing, the wear on the case back seems to be due to normal use and I tend to believe the seller that this watch is untouched. The polished finish on the case is, as far as I know, factory original. Dial and hands seem pristine.. First, thank you everyone for your appreciative comments, I was bit drugged out and I think I may have paid a little too much for this, but it is a real stunner, and I am very happy it is mine. I love the unique blue dial color, and I especially like the long hands, with the beveled sides and brushed center portion, and chiseled hour markers. And it is fun watching the smooth second hand.  Dear croolis, I know very little about these vintage Seiko movements, can ypu tell me WHY you like the 45KS models over the 56KS models? Just to help with my education? And I am glad to hear that the finish could possibly be less polished than I thought, but I am afraid I am skeptical, as the case-back text is worn down to "nothing" and you can see what remains of a good scratch on the back as well, yet on the front and sides it is a pure mirror finish. It just doesn't seem possible. But again, I am Mr. Know Nothing, so I cannot back up my feelings with any experience or counter-examples. I wore it to work today, and it was not as accurate as my +4 second Seikomatic-P, as it was just under 30 seconds fast for the day. But considering all the other good qualities it has, I will try to struggle along with its terrible accuracy... - Thomas |
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Post by ninja01 on Oct 9, 2014 15:30:18 GMT -8
... and I think I may have paid a little too much for this, but it is a real stunner, and I am very happy it is mine. ... can you tell me WHY you like the 45KS models over the 56KS models? Just to help with my education? And I am glad to hear that the finish could possibly be less polished than I thought, but I am afraid I am skeptical, as the case-back text is worn down to "nothing" and you can see what remains of a good scratch on the back as well, yet on the front and sides it is a pure mirror finish. It just doesn't seem possible. But again, I am Mr. Know Nothing, so I cannot back up my feelings with any experience or counter-examples. I wore it to work today, and it was not as accurate as my +4 second Seikomatic-P, as it was just under 30 seconds fast for the day. But considering all the other good qualities it has, I will try to struggle along with its terrible accuracy... - Thomas OK, well to try to address your points in order: 1. You didn't say how much you paid, so kind of hard to say just whether you did overpay or paid "fair market value". Here's some data from my private "database" of sales here in the RP in the past few years of the 45 family (KS & GS): 4520-7000 SS#940471; rather clean $611.79+shipping 4520-8000 [apol_of_your_eyes;Jun '12]Gold Cap, moderately clean case & back (some medallion dents), clean mvmt & dial. US$840.00 4502-7000 redial, hands seem modded (probably removal of the black paint down the middle), some medallion wear, $333.33+ship 4502-8010 KS Chronometer; SS, black dial (orig??), mostly clean mvmt but light spotting on balance assembly, light->moderate medallion wear; Over polished case-top?? $235.50 [Sep '11; what_more] 4502-8010 Certified, SS case w/ light->moderate nicks/scratches, bezel cracked, clean "chronometer" medallion, clean movmt, dial clean - seems original. SS# 041864. [apol_of_your_eyes; Dec '11] $701.03 45-7010 case badly buffed (lost the "Grammar of Design" effect) but mostly clean otherwise, slight black stain @ dial edge. $290 [Feb '11] 45-7001 KS, redial (4502 code + heavy text), clean mvmt, SGP case nicks & light tool marks @ back, $461.00 [Aug '11] 45-7001 [badingski; Nov '11] rather scratched round SS case, clean mvmt & dial, mod. wear to back & medallion; seems correct, $372.77 45-7001 SGP [apol_of_your_eyes; Oct '12] some brassing on lug sides, etc. Clean SS back (especially medallion) though some hairlines. Clean movement & dial. Parts all seem correct. US$365.00 45-7000 [steamboyjunkie; Jul '12] SGP/SS, rather clean medal, some light back wear/scratches seen, clean mvmt, correct crown but wear, some 'dings' on case, clean dial. US$405.00 45-8010 KS Chronometer [clm1002; Nov '11] Chronometer medallion & dial, clean in & out but some medal/bk wear + overbuffing of case(?). $495.00 2. 52 or 56 or 45 better? Subjective. Some folks like you & me appreciate the smoothness of the 36K hi-beats, as well as the greater stability (better ability to resume the regular running rate after being moved/jarred) over the low-beats. Some watchmakers we know appreciate the qualities of the 56 more than the other 2 lines/families ... their perspective is usually regarding ease of working on the movement & it's ability to go for long periods with minimal servicing. The super hi-beats {36K} have historically been said to be more "finicky" needing more frequent servicing and special lubrication. I've read articles from watchmakers who worked on specimens of them after years of running and did NOT find any significant difference between these super hi-beats and the lower beat-rate movements in terms of lubricant need and excessive wear on parts due to higher frequencies. Some writers claim the 52 line was Seiko's "ultimate" effort at the time quartz was taking over from mechanical & that the 52 used all of Seiko's knowledge and ability in it's design, thus it is the "best" Seiko came up with to finish off the mechanical (pre-quartz) era. Who knows?? 3. One answer on the case wear issue: swapping of case parts. Maybe not likely in your case, but should be considered. Maybe the case-back and case-top were NOT originally mated. Kind of hard to know for sure though unless you have complete provenance of the watch. Could be the back is original & the top was a replacement when an earlier owner found a NOS case (or case part) and decided to replace his worn top. Conjecture. You could also be right that top was polished nicely & back was just left. Hard to say at this point just from some pics. 4. Accuracy of old/vintage pieces: well, I'm rather certain the KS could be tuned/regulated to the degree your Presmatic is. Don't forget, sellers don't always have these serviced and finely regulated before selling. Many don't do anything more than buy the piece from some owner/heir who is "disposing" of it, then turn around and market it for resale with minimal or NO "service". Not sure of your seller, but I suspect a lot here in RP really don't do any kind of hi-end work (including fine regulation to get it back to factory accuracy specs, if they would even know the correct specs for that model watch in the specific year it was created!! Don't forget that Seiko accuracy specs did change periodically over the years from early '60s into the '70s for the mechanical movements). Well, that's my take on it anyway. |
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Post by croolis on Oct 9, 2014 15:40:12 GMT -8
Seiko chronometerHello Thomas, The page linked above should explain why I love the 45xx movements so much, they are the movement which Seiko famously killed the Neuchatel Chronometer Trials with, handily beating the swiss at their own game. I have a 4522 Grand Seiko which is one of my favourite watches, your 4502 is very similar. Also (I stand to be corrected) there is no 'low end' version of a 45 series movement.. 56ks/gs have the 5606 base movement, a 6146 shares some parts with the 6106 but the 45KS/GS is pure pedigree Your KS seems to have led a busy life, but was well cared for. Doesn't look like it's been polished up for a higher sale price, just the polishing that many years of daily usage impart. The daily rate is a bit of a random thing on a 40 year old movement though these can be regulated very finely. More important is how stable that daily rate is. If you see major variations it might mean it's time for a service. Wear your KS with pride, it is truly a great watch
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solex
Timekeeper
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Post by solex on Oct 9, 2014 17:35:44 GMT -8
beautiful, I hope my KS comes close to that, congratulations
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Thomas
WIS
Nun Gut
Posts: 1,480
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Post by Thomas on Oct 11, 2014 4:46:02 GMT -8
Wow, thank you for all that infomation gentlemen, I have obviously fallen among a dangerous crowd!  I've broken a long string of wearing a different watch every day, so I can wear my 4502-7001 again. My "story" is that I am checking its accuracy!  It had been about 30 seconds fast each of the first two days I owned it, but I was not winding it sufficiently, so it would stop at 11 pm. That may have had something to do with being that fast. So yesterday I wound it more confidently (I guess it does have a 'clutch" which I wasn't sure of before), and it was only 4 seconds fast at the end of the work day! I laid it flat, face up, overnight and this morning it was 29 seconds fast over the last 24 hours. I very much enjoy this watch with the amazingly smooth second hand, nicely beveled hands with the brushed center stripe, the sunburst style blue dial texture, and the newer Seiko "Midnight Blue" strap that works well with the blue dial. And thank you again for all the info, very educational. I'm becoming a fan of the 45... - Thomas P.S. Oops I forgot, for your database Ninja  : my max bid was US$450, and with 3 seconds to go, I was the top bidder at $410. Then at the very last second it changed to my $450!! OMG, it was that close!!  |
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A sad moment. Inside the box I see some crumpled newspaper.
that is a really nice KS!
congrats mate
: my max bid was US$450, and with 3 seconds to go, I was the top bidder at $410. Then at the very last second it changed to my $450!! OMG, it was that close!! 