My 6105 is losing time after a service. Advice?

[28A]

So that 6105 i picked up last week.. i've worn it twice and while sitting face up on my desk overnight it keeps within a second or two of my 7548 and 7546 movements in the 6309's.. when i wear it it loses time.

I had it most likely fully wound or near enough the first time i wore it and it lost about 5 minutes over a few hours.. and it was flat today when i picked it up.. gave it a shake, set the time and off i went. After about half an hour it was nearly 10 minutes behind and when i got back home (i just went to get lunch) it was around 7 minutes slow so it must have sped up as it was being wound i suppose.

I had my watchmaker check it on friday and the beat error was 0.0 to 0.1, it was within a couple seconds a day.. he said it couldn't get any better than that.

His thoughts were that while rare, perhaps being freshly serviced some oils haven't made their way to where they need to be and it's slowing it down.. or it could be something mechanical. He doesn't believe it's in the escapement / balance but something else could be dragging. Perhaps when the time has been set a lever hasn't gone back right or something so there's a drag somewhere.

I really do like this watch and i don't want to sell it but that accuracy while wearing it is shithouse.

Any thoughts on this?

[Adrian-VTA]

That amount of beat error is OK and the margin of being OK is between 0-0.5 sec.

5 minutes over a few hours, to me, would say a balance or mainspring issue. One more thing with the 6105's, they are quite prone to wear on the barrel arbor pivots. The ones I've seen have all been completely chewed out, and the ratchet wheel has hit the plates, causing all sorts of hard to diagnose running issues. It will be OK on the bench, then when used and the ratchet wheel is moving around, it will lose time.

Like this -



I once had a 6139 that tested completely OK here, and I wore it and it was fine, but when the owner got it back it was no good. I got it back again tested OK. Replaced the barrel arbor pivots (as literally everything else tested OK) and it was fine. The top plate was fine but when I looked at how the gear touched the center pinion, the was at a 30 degree angle. That much deflection means it will stop and start and the bottom pivot is chewed out (less obvious).

I have a jewel kit available if you want one. $45 Australian pesos. It will make it a 19 jewel watch and stop this happening again.

Oct 12, 2015 20:21:12 GMT -8 28A said:

So that 6105 i picked up last week.. i've worn it twice and while sitting face up on my desk overnight it keeps within a second or two of my 7548 and 7546 movements in the 6309's.. when i wear it it loses time.

I had it most likely fully wound or near enough the first time i wore it and it lost about 5 minutes over a few hours.. and it was flat today when i picked it up.. gave it a shake, set the time and off i went. After about half an hour it was nearly 10 minutes behind and when i got back home (i just went to get lunch) it was around 7 minutes slow so it must have sped up as it was being wound i suppose.

I had my watchmaker check it on friday and the beat error was 0.0 to 0.1, it was within a couple seconds a day.. he said it couldn't get any better than that.

His thoughts were that while rare, perhaps being freshly serviced some oils haven't made their way to where they need to be and it's slowing it down.. or it could be something mechanical. He doesn't believe it's in the escapement / balance but something else could be dragging. Perhaps when the time has been set a lever hasn't gone back right or something so there's a drag somewhere.

I really do like this watch and i don't want to sell it but that accuracy while wearing it is shithouse.

Any thoughts on this?

[28A]

Sorry i should have mentioned that when it was serviced it was rejewelled. I believe the main plate was done but he couldn't remember if he did the top or if the bush looked okay.

Other than the that mainspring my watchmaker did mention that perhaps the balance staff pivots could be worn or something but you'd think you'd notice that..

[28A]

I'm gonna take it over to the watchmaker who serviced it and i bought it from and we're gonna check it out tonight. Hopefully it's something simple. 

[tritto]

Sounds like a good idea to take it back to the guy. If he serviced and sold it then he should stand by his work.

[28A]

Yes i agree Tristan, he's quite happy to have a look at it and i'm going to show him my project 7548 (the TST to be) and let him have a look at how i fitted a set of hands to it. He seems very interested in my learning of the hobby which is really cool. Not to mention he gives me stuff! Haha.

I'll keep you guys informed as i'll be going over after dinner tonight.

[Adrian-VTA]

Hit him up to apprentice with him!

I find most watchmakers here really helpful and want to share the skills. Watchmaking is in demand again as the demand for mechanical watches has grown in double digits for a number of years.

Oct 13, 2015 0:22:19 GMT -8 28A said:

Yes i agree Tristan, he's quite happy to have a look at it and i'm going to show him my project 7548 (the TST to be) and let him have a look at how i fitted a set of hands to it. He seems very interested in my learning of the hobby which is really cool. Not to mention he gives me stuff! Haha.

I'll keep you guys informed as i'll be going over after dinner tonight.

[28A]

Oct 13, 2015 0:28:11 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

Hit him up to apprentice with him!

I find most watchmakers here really helpful and want to share the skills. Watchmaking is in demand again as the demand for mechanical watches has grown in double digits for a number of years.

Oct 13, 2015 0:22:19 GMT -8 28A said:

Yes i agree Tristan, he's quite happy to have a look at it and i'm going to show him my project 7548 (the TST to be) and let him have a look at how i fitted a set of hands to it. He seems very interested in my learning of the hobby which is really cool. Not to mention he gives me stuff! Haha.

I'll keep you guys informed as i'll be going over after dinner tonight.

Haha i might have if i was into this two years ago.. I'm halfway through an education degree to become a design and tech high school teacher.. and i'm already a Boilermaker by trade so i don't think i'd be too keen on another apprenticeship. I'm just learning what i can as a hobbyist. 

He would be good though for Seikos.. as he's a Seiko watchmaker. He knows EVERYTHING about them. 

When i got there tonight he had another little box with a 7548 dial and stem, not as good as the dial i got last time and the stem is rusty but still has some spring to it.. so it could be a goer but he wants to hang onto it for now.. both of them. I might get the dial down the track.. He also had a MINT 6139 gold dial. I really want it but he has two 6139's with the "pepsi" bezel but they are black or blue dials and he wants the gold. Maybe i'll get that off him sometime one day. 

Anyway, the 6105.. when the watch is face up or sideways it's fine, dial down the balance is touching something and stopping. He had to straighten the pivots a little but it still had enough wobble that at times it must be touching and stopping. So that's why it's running slow.

He's going to take it in to work and swap the balance wheel with another. We thought at first it was just because it wasn't wound enough but then he asked me while i was rummaging through a box and i was like oh it is 5 minutes behind.. so i guess it had been stopping on and off. At least we know what the issue is.

[jkchua]

Same with mine, balance wheel issue. Brought it to a local Seiko and they told me no chance of having it repaired. I guess I'll have to bring it to a local vintage watch expert.

[28A]

Any of the Seiko 61xx series interchange with the 6105. If you find yourself a 6106 it'll be able to provide the same balance wheel. I think 6117 and 6119 should also have the same part. Just do some googling and find what is interchangable. 

[jkchua]

I think I have a spare 6119 sport diver for parts watch laying around somewhere. Thanks for the info

[stuart]

You can pick up some of those 'junky' 61xx series watches off ebay for very little. I picked up several 6 and 7 series which looked to have ok balances and were reasonably clean and they are great for donor parts.

There were a couple of 6106C which has 23 jewels although I'm not sure if that gives any improvement in accuracy but I guess better reliability?

[tritto]

Sounds like you're on your way to tracking down the problem Nick. Your guy sounds like a good fella, especially when he's willing to give his time to an enthusiastic amateur.

[28A]

Oct 13, 2015 12:05:44 GMT -8 tritto said:

Sounds like you're on your way to tracking down the problem Nick. Your guy sounds like a good fella, especially when he's willing to give his time to an enthusiastic amateur.

Definitely Tristan! It opened my eyes up to the fact that even with shock protection you can still get buggered balance wheels. I thought that was the whole point of shock protection!

Yeah he is defintely a good bloke, very helpful with parts and knowledge and he seems keen to teach me stuff whenever possible. It's good, i'm glad i got onto him in the first place.

[28A]

Oct 13, 2015 7:49:19 GMT -8 stuart said:

You can pick up some of those 'junky' 61xx series watches off ebay for very little. I picked up several 6 and 7 series which looked to have ok balances and were reasonably clean and they are great for donor parts.

There were a couple of 6106C which has 23 jewels although I'm not sure if that gives any improvement in accuracy but I guess better reliability?

I think the extra jewels were just diafix cap jewels for the train wheels from memory. I guess it'd be more longevity as the jewels don't wear out like bushes do.

[Adrian-VTA]

Yep it's all the same. The balance cock sometimes has a different finish but the functional fit is the same. The last 6105 I repaired got a balance from a 6309.

Oct 13, 2015 6:10:49 GMT -8 28A said:

Any of the Seiko 61xx series interchange with the 6105. If you find yourself a 6106 it'll be able to provide the same balance wheel. I think 6117 and 6119 should also have the same part. Just do some googling and find what is interchangable. 

[Adrian-VTA]

Yep, just some diafix caps on the train. Nothing to get too excited about unfortunately. But they do retain oil better so that's nice, I guess.

Oct 13, 2015 7:49:19 GMT -8 stuart said:

You can pick up some of those 'junky' 61xx series watches off ebay for very little. I picked up several 6 and 7 series which looked to have ok balances and were reasonably clean and they are great for donor parts.

There were a couple of 6106C which has 23 jewels although I'm not sure if that gives any improvement in accuracy but I guess better reliability?

[28A]

Oct 13, 2015 17:26:04 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

Yep it's all the same. The balance cock sometimes has a different finish but the functional fit is the same. The last 6105 I repaired got a balance from a 6309.

Oct 13, 2015 6:10:49 GMT -8 28A said:

Any of the Seiko 61xx series interchange with the 6105. If you find yourself a 6106 it'll be able to provide the same balance wheel. I think 6117 and 6119 should also have the same part. Just do some googling and find what is interchangable. 

I have read the 6309 balance wheel and hair spring are different to the 6105. They DO fit.. but they are apparently incorrect as opposed to using a 61 series instead. Something about smaller wheel, different rate hair spring.. but the bph is still the same so the watch will run correctly with it. I guess if it's all you can get your hands on it is better than nothing.

I might keep my eyes open for a NOS balance.. however we have one from a 6106 to use in the meantime.

[Adrian-VTA]

You're quite right, the 6309 is an 11mm balance wheel, the 61 series is a 12mm. I have fitted them and had them working though. I don't remember if I had to adjust the spring collet or not.

Oct 13, 2015 18:08:57 GMT -8 28A said:

Oct 13, 2015 17:26:04 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

Yep it's all the same. The balance cock sometimes has a different finish but the functional fit is the same. The last 6105 I repaired got a balance from a 6309.

I have read the 6309 balance wheel and hair spring are different to the 6105. They DO fit.. but they are apparently incorrect as opposed to using a 61 series instead. Something about smaller wheel, different rate hair spring.. but the bph is still the same so the watch will run correctly with it. I guess if it's all you can get your hands on it is better than nothing.

I might keep my eyes open for a NOS balance.. however we have one from a 6106 to use in the meantime.

[28A]

Oct 14, 2015 1:38:31 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

You're quite right, the 6309 is an 11mm balance wheel, the 61 series is a 12mm. I have fitted them and had them working though. I don't remember if I had to adjust the spring collet or not.

Oct 13, 2015 18:08:57 GMT -8 28A said:

I have read the 6309 balance wheel and hair spring are different to the 6105. They DO fit.. but they are apparently incorrect as opposed to using a 61 series instead. Something about smaller wheel, different rate hair spring.. but the bph is still the same so the watch will run correctly with it. I guess if it's all you can get your hands on it is better than nothing.

I might keep my eyes open for a NOS balance.. however we have one from a 6106 to use in the meantime.

You would of had to bend out the hacking lever if it was a hacking watch.. i don't know about the collet though.

Bit of an update.. balance swapped and it ran perfect all day and then dropped off. So he's going to reservice the entire movement and he thinks it could be either the pins that hold the balance cock (i think this is what he meant..) or a jewel possibly isn't set properly. Anyway, he's going to go through it all again but he said he doesn't mind because he likes the challenge. He said it shouldn't be something overly difficult just fault finding.