Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 19, 2015 6:38:47 GMT -8
I've decided I'm going to settle the SEIKO lubrication question once and for all and do some experimentation with a range of lubricants on a solid test movement. The movement will have NO calendar installed, so we are stripping it right back to train ONLY. So my goal is - 1. Determine best lubrication strategy for mainspring/barrel 2. Determine the best pallet stone lubrication strategy 3. Work out how much of a difference FIX-O-DROP makes 4. Is it better to run the mainspring wetter or drier? Testing will be done by setting up a baseline through the train then changing one thing at a time. Anything else people are curious about? Here's the movement (only partially assembled right now) -
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Myles
Needs a Life!
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Post by Myles on Jan 19, 2015 7:13:27 GMT -8
Are you going to apply Fixodrop to the pallet stones and escape wheel teeth? I think the Rolex-recommended technique is to do this, then run it dry for a bit to wear a track in the Fixodrop-treated surfaces, then apply oil to the escape wheel teeth by letting them pass thought a drop of oil.
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Post by siralan on Jan 19, 2015 8:42:19 GMT -8
I'm interested in this - I think I'll learn a lot from you guys who really know your stuff.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 3:23:49 GMT -8
Yeah the intention is to try all this kind of stuff. I'm determined to get a service methodology for these things which is repeatable and properly documented. How many of us have looked at people's service methodology and the process varies dramatically from person to person? I know that I have not found any truly consistent methodology. So I've just finished the gear train on the test mule and got it ready to slip a barrel in. The first series of tests will be - 1. Dry barrel or wet barrel? 2. is braking grease needed? 3. SYNT HP 1000 or 8301 for the spring? 4. Only lube the arbor? Are you going to apply Fixodrop to the pallet stones and escape wheel teeth? I think the Rolex-recommended technique is to do this, then run it dry for a bit to wear a track in the Fixodrop-treated surfaces, then apply oil to the escape wheel teeth by letting them pass thought a drop of oil.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 5:02:52 GMT -8
Another note, lubricants used so far -
Low torque gear train pivots - MOEBIUS 9010 Center wheel - MOEBIUS SYNT HP 1000 (9103)
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 20:09:43 GMT -8
OK so I've got the test mule together. At this point I have not lubricated the balance pivots. I needed to do some adjustment to the hairspring as the collet had slipped a bit which put the location of the impulse jewel "on the piss". I polished the inside of the barrel as it was quite scored, which is common with these watches. I just did that with a bit of FLITZ on the end of a microfibre cloth. I just stick the tip in the barrel and rotate until it's close to mirror finish. I'm careful not to do this too much so it polishes off the nickel plate. You want shiny nickel not worn off nickel. My standard procedure is to put 3 dots of 8213 around the barrel wall for braking. I'm not sure this is required, so this is one thing we will test further. The lube the spring, I've used 8201, which is 8300 with molybdenum disulphide added. Molybdenum disulphide is kind of like graphite but with considerably better qualities. The Japanese are obsessed with it for lubrication. One benefit of it is that when the carrier oil had dried, it will still facilitate some amount of lubrication. Most Swiss watches as far as I'm aware, with a few exceptions, do not specify use of MoS2 on mainsprings. It's possibly why they tend to just stop and SEIKO's run horribly. I'm not a trained watchmaker but it would make some amount of sense. I've opened a zillion SEIKO barrels and they are filthy and coated with MoS2, but still run. Swiss ones tend to get really sticky. Wiki article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molybdenum_disulfideWhere the on the areas where the arbor rotate inside the barrel, I've polished the surfaces with a toothpick and lubricated them with SYNT HP1000. The barrel arbor pivot bushings in the plates were lubricated with SYNT HP 1000. I've tried 8201 on them before but it tends to move too much and I wasn't happy with it. I've just put it on the timegrapher now. A few important points here - 1. It can take between an hour to a day for a freshly rebuilt movement to "settle in" and get a regular beat. This is because the springs bed in and the lubricant works it's way through the lubricated bits 2. I have not lubricated the balance pivot jewels as yet, so these two issues combined, in theory, should result in a lower amplitude. You can see some minor irregularities on the graph, which would be expected for both of these conditions.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 21:14:58 GMT -8
So lubricating the balance jewels got us an additional 30 degrees of amplitude and a flatline.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 21:23:59 GMT -8
Right, its now settled and this is exactly what we want to see. The "cruising amplitude" is actually creeping up about a degree every 15 minutes or so. On another note, you need to use 9010 for the balance jewels.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2015 21:48:31 GMT -8
Am no watchmaker or even consider myself highly knowledgable when it comes to mechanical watch repairs or full strip downs & reassembly, be it for service or new part replacement, but thoroughly enjoy such threads "thanks for sharing".
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Post by seikoholic on Jan 23, 2015 21:57:56 GMT -8
"Balance jewels".. do you mean the capstones?
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 22:35:33 GMT -8
Yeah that's it, shock protected setting/capstone/etc. I always bugger up the terms "Balance jewels".. do you mean the capstones?
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 23, 2015 22:47:54 GMT -8
So one question I've had for literally ever, what happens when you fit a brand new mainspring? In this case I've fitted a mainspring from an ETA 2890 series, from Generale Ressorts, part no. GR 2534-X. This is the result - straight line and higher amplitude. This was the lowest amplitude it has registered. Highest is 235-240
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Post by pollythecat on Jan 24, 2015 0:29:38 GMT -8
Well this topic is not what I was expecting, must be my dirty mind Thanks, this is an interesting project and am looking forward to mainspring lube results the most, I use the MoS2 sparingly as a preference using gut feeling only, so the results will be welcome.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 24, 2015 0:39:44 GMT -8
The SEIKO S-4 or whatever they recommend for the barrel is a MoS2 lubricant, so the 8201 is the closest match in MOEBIUS. I use very little and when I shake the bottle to mix in the MoS2, I let it settle a bit so it's only got a bit of MoS2, not heaps. If you look up what the watchmakers do about it, there's endless debates that have been raging for years, but no consistent answer. I've had the new mainspring in now a few hours and the rate is considerably steadier than what you'd normally get from an old spring. It's just really close to dead flat. So I might be replacing them a lot more often as a service item in the future. Well this topic is not what I was expecting, must be my dirty mind Thanks, this is an interesting project and am looking forward to mainspring lube results the most, I use the MoS2 sparingly as a preference using gut feeling only, so the results will be welcome.
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Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,213
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Post by Rod on Jan 24, 2015 3:02:39 GMT -8
Well this topic is not what I was expecting, must be my dirty mind Thanks, this is an interesting project and am looking forward to mainspring lube results the most, I use the MoS2 sparingly as a preference using gut feeling only, so the results will be welcome. I'm glad i wasn't the only one
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Post by steve855 on Jan 24, 2015 4:40:20 GMT -8
Thanks hal0eight for doing the research and sharing with us. I hope you get some useful results.
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 24, 2015 5:24:30 GMT -8
I try to entertain! Well this topic is not what I was expecting, must be my dirty mind Thanks, this is an interesting project and am looking forward to mainspring lube results the most, I use the MoS2 sparingly as a preference using gut feeling only, so the results will be welcome. I'm glad i wasn't the only one
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 24, 2015 16:23:26 GMT -8
So with the new mainspring, left overnight, we still have a very respectable rate and amplitude -
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2015 17:58:21 GMT -8
So with the new mainspring, left overnight, we still have a very respectable rate and amplitude - I've been wondering about graphite powder for the mainspring. Is this a non starter, the worst idea ever or just something nobody has experimented with?
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Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jan 24, 2015 21:34:05 GMT -8
You're not insane, Ive thought about it too. This project is all about experimentation, so screw it, I'll add it to the list to try. I've been wondering about graphite powder for the mainspring. Is this a non starter, the worst idea ever or just something nobody has experimented with?
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