Lubricant Experimentation Thread

[Deleted]

Excellent thread. Very interesting. I managed to swallow some 6139 pallets today when they pinged out of the tweasers and straight to the back of my mouth... gulp... doh! So I'm hoping they were well lubed for the return journey. Strange but true!

Don't worry folks I had a spare set of pallets.

[Rod]

Feb 16, 2015 11:25:15 GMT -8 @cockroach said:

Excellent thread. Very interesting. I managed to swallow some 6139 pallets today when they pinged out of the tweasers and straight to the back of my mouth... gulp... doh! So I'm hoping they were well lubed for the return journey. Strange but true!

Don't worry folks I had a spare set of pallets.

So, someday soon you will have a two Jewel movement………. 

[Deleted]

Feb 17, 2015 4:32:46 GMT -8 Rod said:

Feb 16, 2015 11:25:15 GMT -8 @cockroach said:

Excellent thread. Very interesting. I managed to swallow some 6139 pallets today when they pinged out of the tweasers and straight to the back of my mouth... gulp... doh! So I'm hoping they were well lubed for the return journey. Strange but true!

Don't worry folks I had a spare set of pallets.

So, someday soon you will have a two Jewel movement………. 

lol

[Deleted]

Feb 16, 2015 11:25:15 GMT -8 @cockroach said:

Excellent thread. Very interesting. I managed to swallow some 6139 pallets today when they pinged out of the tweasers and straight to the back of my mouth... gulp... doh! So I'm hoping they were well lubed for the return journey. Strange but true!

Don't worry folks I had a spare set of pallets.

Good luck with the search

[siralan]

I have just completed a full strip, clean and re-build of a 6139 movement. I'm not keeping exact count, but this must be the 3rd or 4th 6139 I've done. It's gone just about perfectly (as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge and experience).

I am using Bergeon automatic oilers and my stereo zoom microscope so I can see exactly where and how much oil I apply. I can also see any dirt /debris in the movement, any wear of the parts and correct (or not) placement of the parts and how they are interlocking.

So, my question is this. Is an amplitude of around 190-200 to be expected, and what is the most significant factor that affects it?

I think the answer is main spring (power). I'm assuming that because the main springs in the watches I'm working on are all around 40 years old they are 'tired' and therefore don't generate (or store) as much power as they used to? 

I'm asking this because I think I'm doing a good job on servicing the movement, but I don't really know - the only measure I've got is the timegrapher results (I'm happy with +10 seconds, 0.3ms or better and an amplitude of whatever I get, which as I said seems to be 190-200 on average, but sometimes up to 220-230). 

Some of the reviews, videos and threads I have read as I research this imply that an amplitude of 250 is achievable, and to be expected after a complete and correct service.

All comments and questions welcomed - I'd rather learn that I'm doing something wrong, or not doing something than continue in ignorance.

Thanks.

[Deleted]

Mar 10, 2015 14:23:01 GMT -8 siralan said:

I have just completed a full strip, clean and re-build of a 6139 movement. I'm not keeping exact count, but this must be the 3rd or 4th 6139 I've done. It's gone just about perfectly (as far as I can tell with my limited knowledge and experience).

I am using Bergeon automatic oilers and my stereo zoom microscope so I can see exactly where and how much oil I apply. I can also see any dirt /debris in the movement, any wear of the parts and correct (or not) placement of the parts and how they are interlocking.

So, my question is this. Is an amplitude of around 190-200 to be expected, and what is the most significant factor that affects it?

I think the answer is main spring (power). I'm assuming that because the main springs in the watches I'm working on are all around 40 years old they are 'tired' and therefore don't generate (or store) as much power as they used to? 

I'm asking this because I think I'm doing a good job on servicing the movement, but I don't really know - the only measure I've got is the timegrapher results (I'm happy with +10 seconds, 0.3ms or better and an amplitude of whatever I get, which as I said seems to be 190-200 on average, but sometimes up to 220-230). 

Some of the reviews, videos and threads I have read as I research this imply that an amplitude of 250 is achievable, and to be expected after a complete and correct service.

All comments and questions welcomed - I'd rather learn that I'm doing something wrong, or not doing something than continue in ignorance.

Thanks.

There are many different things that can affect amplitude in spite of proper cleaning and oiling.
The main spring is obviously one but the barrel arbor on these old 6 series movements is prone to elongating and allowing the barrel to rub on the movement base.
Other things like worn center wheel barrels or center wheel jewels can have a large affect on the amplitude.
Non planar hairsprings or non concentric ones will also reduce amplitude as well as beat error and rate.

I typically look for at least 220deg of amplitude as a minimum for good time keeping.

[siralan]

Thanks for this info.

I don't think the barrel arbour is overly worn / elongated (it looks circular and there doesn't appear to be too much 'play').

The same goes for the centre wheel jewel.

I believe I have a good concentric and clean hairspring. I don't really know if it is planar (flat?) and I wouldn't really know how to adjust this (and I'm not really sure that even if I knew I'd have the proper technique to adjust it)

So, given the above, if you had a 6139 that was running with 190 amplitude, where would you look first assuming it's clean and oiled correctly (I know its a big assumption)?

I think what I'm really get at is how the 'experts' tackle a service of a 40 year old watch. Specifically when do parts need to be replaced with either NOS parts or parts that are at least better than those being swapped out.

[Adrian-VTA]

I'm generally unhappy if I get less than 220-230 and will consider rebuilding the piece again if it'd down at 190-ish.

As Peter mentioned, the barrel arbor bushes are an issue with these and are worth investigating. I'm working on a jewel replacement kit for these which will mostly likely take the firm of a set of jewels and a broach so you can fit them yourself. I haven't had an opportunity to work on it for a while but since dumping some areas of business, should have more time to do it soon.

You will find in a number of 6139's (including one I'm working on now), these have been replaced previously. The top one is a press-in, easy to do. The bottom one will need the hole bored out and then a press in. You could also, as a point of experimentation, get a top one from an old plate, press it in and see what happens.

The centre wheel jewel should get pretty much zero wear.

One thing to consider, what does the timegrapher line look like?

Take an hour to read this, then read it again, then read it again and look in detail at the section "error detection with graphical charts"

www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf

Now, on our little timegraphers we don't have the fancy scope function, but with the graphical chart, you can easily tell if the loss of amplitude is a balance or train issue. Try to think in those kind of terms, is the problem balance or train? It really helps to isolate the issue and solve it.

Also, what are you lubricating the barrel with and how much are you using? (this nearly sounds like a question to a drug user doesn't it?)

Adrian.

Mar 11, 2015 11:54:23 GMT -8 siralan said:

Thanks for this info.

I don't think the barrel arbour is overly worn / elongated (it looks circular and there doesn't appear to be too much 'play').

The same goes for the centre wheel jewel.

I believe I have a good concentric and clean hairspring. I don't really know if it is planar (flat?) and I wouldn't really know how to adjust this (and I'm not really sure that even if I knew I'd have the proper technique to adjust it)

So, given the above, if you had a 6139 that was running with 190 amplitude, where would you look first assuming it's clean and oiled correctly (I know its a big assumption)?

I think what I'm really get at is how the 'experts' tackle a service of a 40 year old watch. Specifically when do parts need to be replaced with either NOS parts or parts that are at least better than those being swapped out.

[Deleted]

Mar 11, 2015 13:38:15 GMT -8 Adrian-VTA said:

I'm generally unhappy if I get less than 220-230 and will consider rebuilding the piece again if it'd down at 190-ish.

As Peter mentioned, the barrel arbor bushes are an issue with these and are worth investigating. I'm working on a jewel replacement kit for these which will mostly likely take the firm of a set of jewels and a broach so you can fit them yourself. I haven't had an opportunity to work on it for a while but since dumping some areas of business, should have more time to do it soon.

You will find in a number of 6139's (including one I'm working on now), these have been replaced previously. The top one is a press-in, easy to do. The bottom one will need the hole bored out and then a press in. You could also, as a point of experimentation, get a top one from an old plate, press it in and see what happens.

The centre wheel jewel should get pretty much zero wear.

One thing to consider, what does the timegrapher line look like?

Take an hour to read this, then read it again, then read it again and look in detail at the section "error detection with graphical charts"

www.witschi.com/assets/files/sheets/Witschi%20Training%20Course.pdf

Now, on our little timegraphers we don't have the fancy scope function, but with the graphical chart, you can easily tell if the loss of amplitude is a balance or train issue. Try to think in those kind of terms, is the problem balance or train? It really helps to isolate the issue and solve it.

Also, what are you lubricating the barrel with and how much are you using? (this nearly sounds like a question to a drug user doesn't it?)

Adrian.

Mar 11, 2015 11:54:23 GMT -8 siralan said:

Thanks for this info.

I don't think the barrel arbour is overly worn / elongated (it looks circular and there doesn't appear to be too much 'play').

The same goes for the centre wheel jewel.

I believe I have a good concentric and clean hairspring. I don't really know if it is planar (flat?) and I wouldn't really know how to adjust this (and I'm not really sure that even if I knew I'd have the proper technique to adjust it)

So, given the above, if you had a 6139 that was running with 190 amplitude, where would you look first assuming it's clean and oiled correctly (I know its a big assumption)?

I think what I'm really get at is how the 'experts' tackle a service of a 40 year old watch. Specifically when do parts need to be replaced with either NOS parts or parts that are at least better than those being swapped out.

Thank you very much for that link!
It graphically demonstrates many of the Timegrapher displays I've seen but didn't know what they meant.

This has given me a pretty good idea of why two stubborn movements don't seem to be stable in spite of my attempts to make them so.

[stevenjohn]

I concur.  Thanks for posting the timegrapher information.  Now I wish mine had a waveform output...

[Deleted]

Short and sweet of it is check all pivot holes for burrs. If the mainspring does not sit flush on a flat surface bin it. Check the pallet jewels have not moved. Check all jewels for cracks. That and a good service and you can't go wrong.

I just finished a 6139 service for Stefan. It draws a line as straight as a straight thing and at any angle with chrono engaged or not it still draws a perfect straight line and keeps to within 1+ to 3+ seconds per day depending on whether the chrono is running or not.

Pallet Jewels get overlooked as people are scared of them.

Just my observations and it's bollocks about having this or that timegrapher. Having one is a vast help but they don't make you do a proper job in the first place. Handy would be one that amplifies the tick not just an electronic tick. Mine doesn't do this so I put a mic under the watch and crank up the PC volume to listen for any strange happenings.

I'll shut up now.


Peace.

[siralan]

So, today I stripped, cleaned and rebuilt another 6139. This was from a 6139-7002 that came with an almost worn through top pinion of the transmission wheel and a worn out bush in the autowind framework.

I cleaned every part thoroughly, using essence of renata, rodico and cocktail sticks to clean the main metal bushes. My stereo zoom microscope means I really can see everything - in a way its scary, but ultimately I know how clean things are.

Other than the two parts mentioned, everything else cleaned up well and I couldn't see anything abnormal. I removed both sets of diashock jewels, cleaned both parts and applied the correct amount of oil to the cap jewel (Moebius 9010), refitting both only at the point I needed to.

I'm currently using Moebius 8000 oil on the mainspring arbour (top and bottom) and 9010 on the center wheel. I think that I'll order some Moebius 9104 to use instead. 

I cleaned the pallet jewels with rodico (I'm not sure the shellac will like essence of renata -  I think it will but don't want to take the risk). They are fixed securely, no chips, no oil residue or dirt etc. I don't oil these (yet) as I don't know how to do this correctly.

Once it was rebuilt I popped it on the timegrapher and immediately saw an amplitude of between 230 and 240. Woo hoo. I quickly regulated it and got it to +5, 240 and 0.1 which for me is pretty much perfect.

So, what this tells me is that I am oiling the movement correctly (or put another way, I'm oiling it in a way that allows it to run well).

What I would like to understand is why the other movement is only running around the 190 mark?

I can't see any signs of wear on the main plate, the bridges or the gear train pinions. I think its the main spring (power).

I have a NOS main spring en route and when it arrives I'm going to fit it to this movement and see if it makes a difference.

[stevenjohn]

Just to clarify, you don't oil the pallet jewels, or the pallet pivot?  I've been using 9415 on the pallet jewels and leave the pivot dry with good success.  I clean it with a brush in Ronson (naptha).  I use 8213 on the barrel wall for automatics and HP1300 on the arbor.

[Adrian-VTA]

On the pallet fork, I've tried numerous things. 

NEVER oil the pallet fork pivots. You'll lose about 80 degrees of amplitude. On the faces of the jewels, I've found SEIKO's behave best with 9010. I've tried MOEBIUS 941, which is recommended and haven't been able to get a good result with it. I haven't tried 9415 yet, but it's on the to-do list. That said, 941 works GREAT on ETA movements.

They're fairly easy to do. Use the smallest oiler you have, dip it, then drop it on the face of the stone. You want to get a "domed" appearance.

Here's what they recommend (pinched from the NAWCC forum), I often use a bit more than this -




And here's the TZ-UK idea of it -




As you can see there is no hard or fast rule, so one fo my goals with this thread is to find something that generally works well for what we are doing here.

[Adrian-VTA]

I just read this AMAZING article on wear. Point to note, some of it may be "Horological Paleo Diet" type stuff.

A few things of note, the author mentions "sharpie" style markers, cigarette smoke and off gassing from paints may cause a chemical reaction to oils. Interesting.

watchtech.watchprosite.com/show-forumpost/fi-17/pi-2594511/ti-432251/t-/

[siralan]

Thanks very much for both of these posts - VERY informative and educational.

I serviced another 6139 today (from a 6139-7100).

I took some amplitude readings before I started. With about three turns of the screwdriver to wind the mainspring (not full turns, more like half turns) I was getting 165. Amplitude increased by about 10 for each subsequent 3 turns, until fully wound I was getting about 205.

After the full service I'm now getting 250, which is the highest for any 6139 I've serviced.

Interestingly I've noticed on at least two 6139's I've worked on that some of the screws (on the autowind framework, the chrono and main bridge) are often quite loose. I don't think these watches have been serviced before so I can only assume that over time they have worked loose??

[Adrian-VTA]

So the next lot of stuff for this project just turned up. I now have MOEBIUS 9415 and 941.

9415 has roughly the consistency of a light mayonnaise and 941 is a sticky oil.

9415 is a thixotropic grease, so the viscosity changes depending on how much sliding load is put on to it. So if you can imagine a sauce bottle (or ketchup in the US), when you tilt it sideways, it does nothing, then all of a sudden becomes a liquid from the force of gravity pushing down on it. Technically, it's a non-Newtonian substance.

from wiki -

"Thixotropy is a time-dependent shear thinning property. Certain gels or fluids that are thick (viscous) under static conditions will flow (become thin, less viscous) over time when shaken, agitated, or otherwise stressed (Time Dependent Viscosity). They then take a fixed time to return to a more viscous state. In more technical language: some non-Newtonian pseudoplastic fluids show a time-dependent change in viscosity; the longer the fluid undergoes shear stress, the lower its viscosity. A thixotropic fluid is a fluid which takes a finite time to attain equilibrium viscosity when introduced to a step change in shear rate. Some thixotropic fluids return to a gel state almost instantly, such as ketchup, and are called pseudoplastic fluids. Others such as yogurt take much longer and can become nearly solid. Many gels and colloids are thixotropic materials, exhibiting a stable form at rest but becoming fluid when agitated.

Some fluids are anti-thixotropic: constant shear stress for a time causes an increase in viscosity or even solidification. Constant shear stress can be applied by shaking or mixing. Fluids which exhibit this property are usually called rheopectic. They are much less common."

So the idea with the 9415 is that it stays as a semi solid on your pallet faces until it hits the escapement wheel, where it becomes a liquid.

Should be interesting to see if this changes the amplitude on the test mule at all. Currently it's lubed with 9010, which is modern equivalent to what SEIKO recommends. Back then though modern synthetic lubricants didn't exist.