Seiko just made a sale with this one...

[Adrian-VTA]

Deservedly. The 6R movement is a scam. It's a 4R36 with a different mainspring. Performance is the same as a $30 NH36 from aliexpress. Where does the extra $1000 go?

Oct 15, 2023 17:06:57 GMT -8 HiBeat said:

Ouchy wowow.  Harsh !

[dapellegrini]

I suppose I am in the minority, but I don't buy modern Seiko for quality or precision movements.  I buy them for nostalgia sake, reliability (not accuracy!) and cool dials and case designs.  Are they overpriced?  Yep.  So are Omegas, IWCs, and Rolexes, and Breitlings - and really just about everything north of Timex.  And Timex is on fire right now in the design / re-issue department.

[Fergus]

Does this mean when I fit a new mainspring to a 6139 I can term it a 4139 

A very nice original sold a day or so back, for £490 but not working which may well be a simple fix...for some.


www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126134576011

[nordlys]

Oct 15, 2023 19:06:16 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

I suppose I am in the minority, but I don't buy modern Seiko for quality or precision movements.  I buy them for nostalgia sake, reliability (not accuracy!) and cool dials and case designs.  Are they overpriced?  Yep.  So are Omegas, IWCs, and Rolexes, and Breitlings - and really just about everything north of Timex.  And Timex is on fire right now in the design / re-issue department.

I see Adrian's point regarding the 6R. It's a shit movement and shouldn't be in watches >$500. But such is the reality of modern Seiko. And as long as people keep buying them, I don't think Seiko is going to change their strategy anytime soon.

But even with the shit movement, IMO the modern mid-range Seikos are a decent value secondhand. Once the hype dies down and the values tank about a year after release, these 6R Prospex models level off at $500 to 700 on the used market depending on the model. Another benefit of buying secondhand is you can ask for numerous photos to find one of the unicorns without any of the modern Seiko QC issues.

All in including shipping from Japan, I paid a little under $650 USD for my SBDC127 in essentially like-new condition and with perfect bezel insert, date wheel, and hand alignment. At that price, I think it's a decent value. I personally don't have any desire to own more than one modern Seiko, but it is fun to have a modern version of a classic that I don't need to be careful with.

I'm sure this SPB411 will follow a similar trajectory on the secondhand market, even if it is a "limited edition" of 25,000 pieces. I could see it being a great value at around $750 for someone who loves this design.

[69ChevelleSS]

Going to have to agree on the 6R.

I recently bought 2 watches in the Caribbean while on vacation.  One is a 6R35 and the other a 4R35 (IIRC).  I've been wearing the 6R35 this week.  It has gained a minute in one week.  Not bad but the last time I wore the 4R35 it was almost dead on for the full 2 weeks I wore it.    The 6R watch was more than twice the cost of the 6R watch.

[dapellegrini]

I think everything has gotten more expensive than many of us realize, very recently and seemingly all at once.  At least in the US.  I suspect sub-$2,000 USD for a new, "in-house" mechanical watch (even a crap one) from a big name is the new "budget" line, or will be soon.  Also, I think most other Swiss options in that bracket use a 3rd party movement, right?

A point or curiosity for me - is the 6R movement adjustable / able to achieve reasonably good results with the proper service, or is it purely unredeemable?  It seems a lot of these expensive old Seikos we collect also did not perform as well when new as they do now with a good and proper service and adjustment.  Am I wrong on that? 

You guys all have me so down on Seiko, I am holding back the urge to smash all of my 7S26's with a hammer! 

[Fergus]

Can someone, anyone, explain the difference between NH movements and 4R, 6R, 7S movements when all are reportedly manufactured by Seiko. Surely it cannot be down to a mainspring change.

[nordlys]

The simple explanation is:

A 4R35/6 is a 7S26 with a hacking lever and handwinding gearwork installed.

An NH35 is a 4R36 sold to 3rd parties.

A 6R15 is a 4R35 with a slightly different alloys for the mainspring and hairspring. Supposedly the 6R movements are "regulated" to a slightly tighter tolerance than 4R movements as well, but that hasn't been my experience.

The new 6R35 has a new mainspring/barrel and a slightly re-worked geartrain to achieve the 70 hour PR.

[dapellegrini]

I think I read somewhere that there is a newer rev of the 6R from 2021, I wonder what changes they made there.

[Fergus]

Oct 16, 2023 8:39:25 GMT -8 nordlys said:

The simple explanation is:

A 4R35/6 is a 7S26 with a hacking lever and handwinding gearwork installed.

An NH35 is a 4R36 sold to 3rd parties.

A 6R15 is a 4R35 with a slightly different alloys for the mainspring and hairspring. Supposedly the 6R movements are "regulated" to a slightly tighter tolerance than 4R movements as well, but that hasn't been my experience.

The new 6R35 has a new mainspring/barrel and a slightly re-worked geartrain to achieve the 70 hour PR.

OK Thanks but I still do not understand why Seiko produce different qualities.

[nordlys]

Oct 16, 2023 9:16:00 GMT -8 Fergus said:

OK Thanks but I still do not understand why Seiko produce different qualities.

Market segmentation.

Or, more simply: Money.

[leffemonster]

Interestingly, the 4R35A/B has 23 jewels whereas the NH35A has 24. 

Maybe someone with far too much time on their hands could go through the relevant technical guides and list out all the part numbers and highlight any differences between the NE**, NH**, 4R** and 6R** calibres…

[Adrian-VTA]

No. The 6R can't be "tuned" any better than an old 7S26 from a mechanical sense. A hand service will significantly improve the performance due to better oiling than the SEIKO robots who either use too much, or too little oil. They also oil the pallet fork pivots which is a big nono. Also SEIKO's factory oils are garbage. The MOEBIUS oils perform a lot better and don't turn to sludge.

Otherwise, It has the same balance/escapement. The only difference between the 6R series and the 4R/NH36 is the "SPRON" mainspring, which gives you a longer power reserve. An irrelevant feature in my opinion. So the performance is the same old -35/+25 s/day or whatever it is.

6R35 adds a SPRON hairspring, but performance rating is the same as the 7S26.

If the point of difference with the 6R was maybe a MEMS escape wheel or something, and it was a smidge better performance wise, I'd be telling a different story. It would be like a 10 yen difference from a manufacturing point of view.

Dunno why you are down? It's just a watch. We talk watches. I'm just cutting through the marketing bullshit for people so you know what you are buying.

Oct 16, 2023 8:12:40 GMT -8 dapellegrini said:

I think everything has gotten more expensive than many of us realize, very recently and seemingly all at once.  At least in the US.  I suspect sub-$2,000 USD for a new, "in-house" mechanical watch (even a crap one) from a big name is the new "budget" line, or will be soon.  Also, I think most other Swiss options in that bracket use a 3rd party movement, right?

A point or curiosity for me - is the 6R movement adjustable / able to achieve reasonably good results with the proper service, or is it purely unredeemable?  It seems a lot of these expensive old Seikos we collect also did not perform as well when new as they do now with a good and proper service and adjustment.  Am I wrong on that? 

You guys all have me so down on Seiko, I am holding back the urge to smash all of my 7S26's with a hammer! 

[Adrian-VTA]

Bad news, the 6R15 has the same hairspring as the 7S26/4R36. It's only the mainspring that is different. They are spat out of a factory like the 4R and there's no extra tuning or special treatment to them.

The 6R35 adds a SPRON hairspring, performance seems the same as a 7S26.

Oct 16, 2023 8:39:25 GMT -8 nordlys said:

The simple explanation is:

A 4R35/6 is a 7S26 with a hacking lever and handwinding gearwork installed.

An NH35 is a 4R36 sold to 3rd parties.

A 6R15 is a 4R35 with a slightly different alloys for the mainspring and hairspring. Supposedly the 6R movements are "regulated" to a slightly tighter tolerance than 4R movements as well, but that hasn't been my experience.

The new 6R35 has a new mainspring/barrel and a slightly re-worked geartrain to achieve the 70 hour PR.

[Adrian-VTA]

7S26 - Based on the old 7006/7009. They moved the keyless works to the train side so more stuff could be put dial side for better quicksetting of the calendar.

4R36/NH36 - 7S26, but with an extra bridge on the pawl wheel, which makes it a more durable movement than the 7S26 as the pawl wheel is supported on pivots in jewels, rather than just on a post which excessively wears. As the pawl wheel is moving constantly, it's a good revision. Also adds hacking and hand winding.

6R15 series - 4R36 with a different mainspring.

6R20 series - Same as 6R15, but with a hibeat movement and slightly better performance. What they should have used in the KS line.

6R3x series - As far as I'm aware same as above with some minor revisions. Has a SPRON hairspring which claims it's more magnetic resistant. Haven't had one open here. Accuracy rating the same as 7S26.

Oct 16, 2023 8:24:08 GMT -8 Fergus said:

Can someone, anyone, explain the difference between NH movements and 4R, 6R, 7S movements when all are reportedly manufactured by Seiko. Surely it cannot be down to a mainspring change.

[nordlys]

Interesting, as the part numbers for the “balance complete with stud” are different for the 4R36 (310.197) and 6R15 (310.185). Is this because the 6R part comes (supposedly) better adjusted from the factory than the 4R part?

I’ve read prior accounts that the 4R and 6R use slightly different materials for the hairspring itself, although admittedly, they visually appear the same to me.

[dapellegrini]

I appreciate the context and detail Adrian-VTA - keep it coming!  

[HiBeat]

Oct 16, 2023 6:05:01 GMT -8 69ChevelleSS said:

Going to have to agree on the 6R.

I recently bought 2 watches in the Caribbean while on vacation.  One is a 6R35 and the other a 4R35 (IIRC).  I've been wearing the 6R35 this week.  It has gained a minute in one week.  Not bad but the last time I wore the 4R35 it was almost dead on for the full 2 weeks I wore it.    The 6R watch was more than twice the cost of the 6R watch.

60 seconds over 7 days = +9 spd.   C'mon Bob that's great performance !!!!

[HiBeat]

I have owned or do still own over a dozen 6R15 and 6R35 watches, bought both new and used, and they are all excellent performers.

I appreciate the 70 hours of power reserve of the new 6R35s but I rarely wear a watch and then let it sit for 3 days to pick it up again.  So for me it's moot but I like knowing that.

I also have owned nearly 1000 7XXX movements. Some are pretty darn impressive but most are quite lackluster timekeepers to all us "WIS's" who actually notice and care when a watch gains 40 seconds one day then 18 spd the next day and the back to 35 spd and so forth. 

The 4R3X and it's NH3X generic versions are truly amazing for the money.  You can buy a new one for $35 USD.  Most of them can be regulated to single (or maybe 10-15) spd pretty easily. 

[HiBeat]

To really amplify on Adrian's point on the price being a function of the marketing efforts, the 4R36 can be purchased new for $35-$40. 

So where does the manufacturing cost come from that justify's a $600 USD price tag when cased and with a rubber strap?   It doesn't.