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Post by dapellegrini on May 19, 2023 11:51:21 GMT -8
RE: Serial numbers I wrote a quick script to take all of the World Timers and Bell-matics that I have cataloged so far (just north of 1,700 watches) and do a dup check on the serial numbers. Curiously no dups in any of that lot - in other words no examples of the same serial number on two different case backs / models... With this many watches I was expecting to find a couple that did dup... So here is what I am trying to prove or disprove: can we reliably use the serial number to estimate total production of a specific seiko model? For instance, in 1964 here are the 6217-7000's that I have cataloged: So I am wondering if in this example I can take the highest production number in each month, add them together (in this case that gives us 100,077) and estimate this as the total production for this model in this year? I picked this specific model because I have a good data set and it was a one year production to make it easier. It was produced in 10 of the 12 months that year, and you can clearly see that the numbering sequence resets each month. It is not clear whether other models were also using numbers in these series, or if the whole block from say 0 to 5953 in March 1964 were for this model only. Ok, so if you are still with me... If these numbers were done per model, then logic would follow that we would see other models from the same year with the same serial number. I have found examples in this, but only of say a womans watch vs a mens sports watch, nothing definitive. So what continues to evade me are clear examples of the same serial number on different watches from the same year, in the same category (at least mens vs womens watches). A few other notes: - I am convinced that 1966 and 1967 model numbers were shared across many (if not all) Seiko watches - I suspect that all of the 7-digit serials may have had shared ranges - It's really the 6-digit serials that seem like they would be per model, but again struggling to prove that with the data AND... As a counter point to the above (again using World Timers, as I am still building this tool out for the Bells), here's the one-month production numbers for the Asian Games - all of these serials started with "68" then the numbers here: It seems pretty obvious in this case that the total production number, up to 99,999 was shared across many watches, and our Asian Games version appears to have gotten 3 batches / slices in there. In this case it seems more reasonable to take the lowest and highest in each group and just count the difference between them.... that is of course unless there is absolutely no rhyme or reason to this. I wish I knew how the caseback stamping worked - I think that would give a lot of insight. Could they just through a bunch of misc case backs into the machine - get them stamped, then sort them out on the other side so the same model isn't even grouped?
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Post by dapellegrini on May 19, 2023 13:10:05 GMT -8
Also on the 7020 using the 7000T dials, it appears that the 7000T dials used in the 7020's have a radial finish, whereas the 7000T dials in the 7000 models has a vertical brushed finish.
"I think" ....
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Post by dapellegrini on May 26, 2023 13:00:51 GMT -8
Today's topic... Original bracelets for the early 4006-7000. And LOTS of photos! At this point I suspect there are at least 3 early chiclet style bracelets used on the first Bell-matic. First up: The FIRST bracelet, Rev 0 This one is found on the 6N DOLPHIN and 6D DIASHOCK cases, which have a different (but very similar) shape to the 4006-7000's from 1967 through the end of the run. Different enough to require different end links. I suspect this bracelet was replaced because of the weakness of the bracelet holding loops under the end links... Here are some photos of mine: Rev 0 Notes: The center of the links is solid, the connecting parts are thin metal loops, like the part under the end links. The clasp is marked "7C" - not sure what significance this may or may not have The end links are NOT signed Next: The SECOND bracelet, Rev 1 Rev 1 Notes: The end links are notably different, and the spring bar hoops on the bracelet are much larger and more robust The center of the links is NOT solid, the connecting parts are link spring bar tubes on each end link, spanning the entire distance in the center of each link The clasp is marked "7C" - not sure what significance this may or may not have The end links are NOT signed And finally: The SECOND bracelet Rev 2 Rev 2 Notes: The end links are again notably different from Rev 1, with a rolled top profile / edge The center of the links is NOT solid, the connecting parts are link spring bar tubes on each end link, and seem identical to Rev 1 The clasp is marked "8C" - not sure what significance this may or may not have The end links are ARE now signed
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inboost
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Post by inboost on May 27, 2023 6:55:40 GMT -8
Wow, this is really great info dapellegrini. Bracelet research is so difficult, thanks for taking the time to post this up! Would any of these suit the 6070 I have? It's got hooded lugs so I suspect not but I was curious if the same bracelet just got different end link terminations for those watches?
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Post by dapellegrini on May 27, 2023 7:42:35 GMT -8
There is more to come. There may be another 1 or 2 variants yet.
And unfortunately I don't see anyway you could use these on the 6070. The way they connect at the last link would be very challenging to modify to fit into a new end link / tube. Not to mention buying watches with these bracelets on them is getting quite $$$ these days.
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inboost
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Post by inboost on May 27, 2023 10:20:01 GMT -8
dapellegrini - what I meant was I wonder if the 6070 bracelet was the same up to but not including it's end pieces, but now that I go back and look at the X112 l10n3l posted photos of I see it's not even close.
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Post by dapellegrini on May 27, 2023 10:22:27 GMT -8
Ah, yes. Very different.
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Post by dapellegrini on Jun 8, 2023 16:06:12 GMT -8
Well it appears that my numbering above is no good. That Rev 0 bracelet from the posts above came on a 78 (Aug 1967) case, where it fit perfectly. I thought it was a bracelet swap, and spent literally hours trying to figure out why it would not fit on my 6N dolphin. The end links seemed to fit perfect, unlike the Rev 1 and Rev 2 versions, but the placement of the springbar under the end link just wasn't right. I tried some gentle reshaping, but no luck. I now suspect that Rev 0 was NOT the first... and not for the Dolphin case. Here is my next bracelet, REV 0.Beta. This one is marked 7B instead of 7C on the clasp, and importantly DOES FIT my 6N dolphin case without any struggle. It came to me on a 72 (Feb 1967) case, and I suspect it was original to it. The bracelet is also slightly different from the Rev 0 above in a few ways. First some photos: Now at first pass, I would have said this is the same damn thing as my previous Rev 0, aside from the 7B code on the clasp.. but look closer and you will notice: #1 the arrows point opposite directions are are slightly different size/shape. 7C (Rev 0) is the top two parts, 7B (Rev 0 Beta) is the bottom two parts. Rev 0.Beta #2 the end links are just slightly different. The rounded bottom has a slightly different arc, the end tab / dog ears have a slightly different shape, and importantly it seems like the pass-through points for the bracelet are in a slightly different location. Rev 0 on the left here, Rev 0.Beta on the right And here is 7B / Rev 0 Beta fitted to my 6N dolphin. I may use a pair of nylon jewelers pliers to gently bend in the top edges at some point. Important for me here is that this version of the bracelet went on with no effort, vs my previous Rev 0 that categorically refused because of the alignment Rev 0.Beta Notes: The center of the links is solid, the connecting parts are thin metal loops, like the part under the end links. The clasp is marked "7B" - not sure what significance this may or may not have The end links are NOT signed The shape and size of the removable link arrows is different from Rev 0 The end links have a slightly different profile on the understand, and seem to align perfectly for the 6N case
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Jun 8, 2023 17:15:02 GMT -8
dapellegrini - the differences almost seem to be manufacturing plant based, like Diani vs Suwa. I'd bet the engraving gear and the stamping gear could have been a touch different and thus these differences emerged. Can you correlate these two bracelets to Diani / Suwa watch assembly?
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Post by dapellegrini on Jun 8, 2023 17:18:11 GMT -8
Hmmm, I'll have to ponder that one for a bit. I always thought of these bellmatics as Suwa productions, but now that you mention it, several of the 21 jewel movements have Daini stamped on them IIRC
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Post by dapellegrini on Jun 24, 2023 10:18:44 GMT -8
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Post by dapellegrini on Aug 3, 2023 12:11:46 GMT -8
Next up in the rare with a capital R category, this Business Bell. NOTE: This is not the normal 7040T dial in 7010 case Business Bell. This is a 7030T dial in a 7000 case. 3rd known example. Obviously serviced at some point, but dial and hands are in great shape: I fitted a chiclet's style bracelet on this one, but am not sure which bracelet it might have originally come on. This one is S/N: 7542910 The other two are 7542931 and 7547950 If all the interceding numbers from 42910 to 47950 were for these - then I suppose there could be another 5,000 or so of them out there. I currently do not show any other Bellmatics in in April of 1967 between those numbers - just these three. I suspect any new finds will likely fall inside this range. 1967 was a mess of a year for Seiko Serials, so I would not be surprised if there are only a small handful of these out there in reality.
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Aug 3, 2023 18:13:09 GMT -8
Very intriguing dapellegrini! Can we get a side by side of the two Business Bells?( 7040T dial in 7010 case / 7030T dial in a 7000 case)
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Post by dapellegrini on Aug 3, 2023 19:47:08 GMT -8
Good idea. I’ll do a photo shoot comparison of them in the daylight tomorrow.
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Post by dapellegrini on Aug 4, 2023 12:32:09 GMT -8
Alright, I won't really get into the case and case back styles - as those are the same for all 7000's vs 7010's, but here are the two different model Business Bells, side by side. Note the 7030T dial in the 7000 case has a striking vertical brushed finish - just like the 7000T dials also found in the mainstream 7000 cases. Likewise the 7040T dial in the 7010 case has a radial finished dial, just like the 7010T dials also found in the mainstream 7010 cases. And fun fact, the dial codes in the Bellmatic series tell the chronology better than the case codes. For he 4006-70XX's - it looks like this: 1. The 7000T was the first, in the 7000 case 2. The 7010T was the second, in the 7010 case 3. Then we get the 7020T, only found in the very rare bird 7019 cases with 21 jewel movements. 4. Then the 7030T Business Bell, in the 7000's, 5. Then the 7040T Business Bell in the 7010's. 6. To confuse things further, the 7050T went into the 7020 case 7. The 706XT dial was a later release in the 7010 case 8. The 7070T dial went in the later 7000 cases 9. The 7080T also went into the 7000 case 10. And the 7090T was the 17 jewel revision in the 7020 case So really all over the place
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Post by dapellegrini on Aug 4, 2023 16:50:40 GMT -8
SOTC minus about 10 that are in pieces at the moment:
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Aug 5, 2023 5:34:09 GMT -8
Excellent comparison shots there dapellegrini, thanks for putting those up!
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Post by dapellegrini on Sept 8, 2023 15:57:38 GMT -8
Here's the complete set of Business Bells
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ethan
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Post by ethan on Dec 11, 2023 5:17:26 GMT -8
I have got 2 Bell-matic so far and I love them both.
4006-6020 (February 1970) 4006-6021 (June 1975)
I especially like the square-roundish case of the 6020 and 6021 because it is somehow unique compared to the others.
Next I am looking for the other two variants which were originally intended for the western market. I am based in Asia and these are really rare in this part of the world.
Too bad I still could not find the original matching bracelet.
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 11, 2023 7:10:56 GMT -8
These are fun to collect and some are challenging to source. Which dial codes / colors do you have?
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