Fergus
Needs a Life!
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Post by Fergus on Dec 5, 2021 0:53:19 GMT -8
Perhaps the wavy spring that hold the inner rotating bezel down. It's not shown on the Seiko Technical manuals exploded view but then again they don't show the similar part on the 6139 movement casing either.
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Dec 5, 2021 3:19:22 GMT -8
Yeah, that's what I wondering. Do you think it's possible those were reassembled in error after their last service before coming to you? Maybe they were meant to go below the chapter ring? It makes more sense for them to be above to press it down into mesh with the stem pinion so it's probably correct, but it seems odd they would be visible so that's why I ask.
Inboost
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ouroboros
Timekeeper
One more watch. I think....
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 5, 2021 11:09:44 GMT -8
A spring should go over the chapter ring as it needs to be pressing the ring to the gear as in a 6139-600x. In this case, maybe there should be a tension ring on the crystal that hides/dresses up the watch to hide the spring. I have a 6117-6400 which has a T crystal but it does not have the wavy spring. Not able to help but only sharing my opinion.
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 7, 2021 14:57:03 GMT -8
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Dec 8, 2021 6:09:36 GMT -8
Nice photos dapellegrini! They do show some interesting differences in lug shape and case shape.
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 13, 2021 18:59:49 GMT -8
Another interesting watch has turned up on ebay - a 1975 6117-6400. Well, that's not interesting... The interesting thing is that the dial and hands are without lume, and dial code ends in 6404T (instead of the standard 6400T on the black dial). www.ebay.com/itm/353802012422So far I have only seen one other 6117-6400 with no lume - a white dial version from 1974 - with a dial code ending in 6424T (instead of the standard 6420T on the white dial). wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/19622/arrival-seiko-6117-world-validationOddly, it appears there is lume on the GMT hand... or maybe just white paint? Could these be legit late model options from Seiko? Or are these aftermarket dial and handsets? They are still highly suspect, and I need more data, but the rest of both watches check out: - black center stripe on hour/minute hands on white dial, not on black dial - correct looking SEIKO logo - date correct bezels\
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Rod
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Post by Rod on Dec 14, 2021 18:01:31 GMT -8
In the 1976 Seiko casing parts book, it lists two different hour/minute hands and one second for all of the 6117-64xx's, but only one 24hr hand (11e02ps). Things are not as regimented as in todays world and the repairer would order a hand and ask for the gold version and the part numbers are the same. Also Seiko dropped hands as they either ran out from the store or the demand dropped. So for example the crown for the 6117-6xxx was listed as the replacement for the 6217-8xxx.
I'd be interested in seeing if there is a gold hand that is also lumed?
6117-64xx hands
Minute 10B14L SM (stainless steel lume) 10B24M SM (stainless steel plain)
Hour 10W02B SH (stainless steel lume) 10W02M SH or GH (stainless/gold steel plain)
Second hand is common for all 6117's 13SB11N (stainless/gold steel plain)
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 14, 2021 18:41:42 GMT -8
Keep in mind the black and white dial versions of the 6117-640X had different hour and minute handsets.
The correct white dial (hour/minute) hands have a black stripe down the middle. The black dial hands don't have that detail.
I am pretty sure the gold version 6117-6409 had the same black line down its hands - and they were gold colored. They were also only made in 1972 as far as I can tell.
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 14, 2021 18:45:25 GMT -8
White dial hands with black stripe down the middle: Black dial version - no black line down the middle of the hands: And the gold version with the black line down the middle of the hands - and almost certainly gold colored:
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Post by dapellegrini on Dec 14, 2021 18:54:13 GMT -8
In the 1976 Seiko casing parts book, it lists two different hour/minute hands and one second for all of the 6117-64xx's, but only one 24hr hand (11e02ps). Things are not as regimented as in todays world and the repairer would order a hand and ask for the gold version and the part numbers are the same. Also Seiko dropped hands as they either ran out from the store or the demand dropped. So for example the crown for the 6117-6xxx was listed as the replacement for the 6217-8xxx. I'd be interested in seeing if there is a gold hand that is also lumed? 6117-64xx hands Minute 10B14L SM (stainless steel lume) 10B24M SM (stainless steel plain) Hour 10W02B SH (stainless steel lume) 10W02M SH or GH (stainless/gold steel plain) Second hand is common for all 6117's 13SB11N (stainless/gold steel plain) Hey Rod - I should have asked - do you know those part numbers mean lume vs non-lume? If not, it seems more likely to me they are black dial vs white dial sets. Here's a link to some more info I have written up on these dials: seikoworldtime.com/articles/6117-640X-Validation#dial
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jan 25, 2022 18:52:42 GMT -8
Has this one been cataloged yet - black dial but with same color around the edges ?
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Post by dapellegrini on Jan 25, 2022 18:58:24 GMT -8
Thanks HiBeat - Yes it is. I think that yellow 24-hour ring is likely sun-bleached. It is also on my short list of curiosities - as one of three now I have found that do not have lume on the hands or dial
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Post by dapellegrini on Jan 25, 2022 19:20:37 GMT -8
There was a bug with my data viewer - after adding a digital version... just fixed ---------- OK, here are the three watches that I have cataloged that don't have lume (including this one you just mentioned) seikoworldtime.com/dataView?modelNo=6117&handLume=false&dialLume=false&casebackManufactureCode=japan%20fAll in 1974/75. Might be legit... my current guess is not, but curious they are all in a similar production time window. Click the Thumbnail gallery option to view them - or clikc the S/N hyper link to see them in a popup This tool is best on desktop but does work on mobile ...
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Jan 25, 2022 19:53:19 GMT -8
There was a bug with my data viewer - after adding a digital version... just fixed ---------- OK, here are the three watches that I have cataloged that don't have lume (including this one you just mentioned) seikoworldtime.com/dataView?modelNo=6117&handLume=false&dialLume=false&casebackManufactureCode=japan%20fAll in 1974/75. Might be legit... my current guess is not, but curious they are all in a similar production time window. Click the Thumbnail gallery option to view them - or clikc the S/N hyper link to see them in a popup This tool is best on desktop but does work on mobile ... So, the one I posted 3 posts up that you are asserting might be sun bleached red that has turned to yellow, and it may well be for all I know, has no lume on hands nor hour markers. You opine above that this seems to be a feature from 1974 and 1975. This one is indeed from December 1974 - data point #4
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Post by dapellegrini on Jan 25, 2022 20:25:29 GMT -8
Ya - that is interesting! A few other points of interest in the tiny dataset of non-lume 6117-640X's: - The hands are otherwise correct. White dials have hands with a black stripe down the center, black dials do not. These non-lumed examples got that right.
- The dial codes are consistent. White dial codes should be JAPAN 6117-6420T - the non-lumed is JAPAN 6117-6424T. Black dial codes should be JAPAN 6117-6400T - the two non-lumed black dial examples are JAPAN 6117-6404T
- Of the two black dial examples, one is more yellow-ed vs the other - neither are as dark / rich orange as many other black dials
RE: the yellow(ing) 24-hour ring... Here are the 143 black dial 6117-640X that I've cataloged and studied: seikoworldtime.com/dataView?modelNo=6117-64&dialColor=black%20linen&thumbs=trueA small subset the 24-hour ring in yellow or a yellow/orange, thus my guess that these are likely sun-bleached. Earlier models have similar black dials with the 24-hour rings showing up in various shades of red to gold - again the guess/assumption is fading based on sun exposure. These 10 are VERY yellow: seikoworldtime.com/dataView?modelNo=6117-64&dialColor=yellow&thumbs=trueThese are not very legible, seems you would make the hours font black if this was an intentional color. Often they are more orange colored toward the edge that goes under the bezel.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on Feb 16, 2022 15:29:48 GMT -8
Great work Dan and everyone else. I can't believe I missed this thread. I have something to weigh in on. As Dan has noted, there is often a "wavy spring" between the bezel and the crystal. Its function is to keep some downward pressure on the bezel so that the gear engages with the track under the bezel. You will notice that the bezel has a shallow channel on the outer edge to accommodate this spring. The 341W02AN crystal that I had stashed away did not come with a wavy spring and I'm not sure if they ever did. Usually you need to reuse the wavy spring. Adrian at VTA did a run of replica wavy springs a couple of years ago so you may wish to snag one if the still had them on eBay. The 30m SilverWave uses the same case and bezel arrangement and I have had three of them. What's interesting is that one had a wavy spring and two didn't. I believe that these initially shipped with an alternative crystal (MA34W), that had a slightly shallower cut out in the underside of the crystal. This crystal doesn't require a wavy spring, only the 341W02AN requires the wavy spring. So I suspect that the '64 6217-8000s may have shipped without the wavy spring, but the later '67 ones (like mine) have the spring. This is speculation based on my experience with the 30m SilverWave. One thing that is noticeably different between my SilverWaves and my World Time is that the bezel is one piece on the Silverwaves, but is two piece on the World Time - a white section with teeth to engage with the stem gear that sits underneath the city ring. The two pieces rely on friction to rotate together.
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Post by dapellegrini on Feb 16, 2022 16:12:13 GMT -8
Ya, the W in the 4th character of the part number indicates that the part comes "without accessory"... seikoworldtime.com/articles/seiko_codes_and_part_numbers?crystal=341W02AN341 T02AN would indicate the same crystal, but including a tension ring, though not sure if that part number exists out there. For later versions of this watch, they do come with the tension ring, any of these with the 4th character as a "T" seikoworldtime.com/articles/Seiko_Codes_And_Part_Numbers#partsEDIT: Not sure about 1964 vs 1967 crystals for the 6217-7000, if later replacements came with the ring... interesting question... Interesting there are silver and black tension rings too - my black dial 6217-7000's got an incorrect silver tension ring - but you would never notice if you didn't know what you were looking for. EDIT: Not sure about 1964 vs 1967 crystals for the 6217-7000, if later replacements came with the ring... interesting question...
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Post by dapellegrini on Feb 16, 2022 16:44:35 GMT -8
You can just make out the silver tension ring / springy thing on my black dial here... above Honolulu for instance. I have a hunch that ring should be black or dark metallic, like I have on later 6117-601X versions. These are both 1964's, and the black version is not on original bracelet... though that one fits my wrist. The silver one is on original bracelet and it is WAY too big for me.
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Post by dapellegrini on Mar 7, 2022 14:06:58 GMT -8
Just received my Asian Games and 2x 6117-6010's back from servicing. They look so much better with new crystals... I brought the case out in the sun to get a better photo of the shades of silver on the "white/silver" dial variants:
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Post by dapellegrini on Mar 7, 2022 14:10:14 GMT -8
Indoors its a little less pronounced in photos - but quite obvious in person
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