inboost
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Post by inboost on Mar 7, 2022 15:12:59 GMT -8
dapellegrini - wow, the light really plays quite a part in how those dials come across! Thanks for sharing, the collection looks even more awesome!
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Post by dapellegrini on Mar 14, 2022 15:44:33 GMT -8
Just received this one from Denmark today: Its a December 1967, with a 6-digit serial number. Earlier in 1967 these had 7-digital serial numbers. It is my first interaction with this dial version. Oddly the lume does not light up at all - even while directly under black light. All my other lumed dials (1968-1976) at least pop under black light - but not this one. I inspected the lume dots under magnification and it all looks legit compared to other watch photos I have cataloged. The lume plots are a little uneven on - which seems par for the course with this dial type. Huh, perhaps whatever lume was used on these is truly cooked? Here's where the mechanical world time collection stands: There are two spots left, and possibly 3 more variations I am still in the hunt for.
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Post by dapellegrini on Mar 17, 2022 13:55:01 GMT -8
Another interesting trend that is starting to emerge... It seems Seiko's production of these mechanical watches followed a pretty steady decline from 1964 to the end of series in 1976. This based on over 515 watches now cataloged - and using the highest production number from each month/year recorded to guess at total production.
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 2, 2022 17:24:09 GMT -8
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Apr 3, 2022 5:47:55 GMT -8
dapellegrini - I wonder if the non-lumed hand sets can be tied to a specific era and when compared to other watches across the offering of lumed dials/hands in that period we see the same trend? Maybe there was a shortage or factory shut-down that stopped the application of lume (much like the semiconductor shortages of today)? To make due, pperhaps the watches were delivered with normal hands and unlumed faces. Can you detect if there is space for dial loom plots that is unfilled, or is it that the dial indices are different as the hands are?
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small
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Post by small on Apr 3, 2022 8:26:08 GMT -8
after reading the last seven pages of this titled Vintage Seiko World Time and not a single mention of the 7009-8860? Maybe it should get changed to 6117/6217 World Time....Anyway I finally picked one up for a reasonable price...There has been a worn out gold finished one with a matching gold dial which I think is the only other variation of world-time made with a 7009. Sellers picture...While not a NO$9 or even lunch money, it's rarity in the 7009 family warranted spending more...
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 3, 2022 8:57:29 GMT -8
small - thanks for that. I had made a separate thread about those to try and establish some base line data, but never got any bites: www.thewatchsite.com/threads/anyone-familiar-with-the-seiko-5-world-time.345338/#post-3007286I am definitely interested in these: - Are they mechanical? I think they are - What caliber is in there? - What year(s) were they produced roughly? - What markets were they sold in? - What model no(s) were used? I wonder if these continued on after the 6117 stopped production in 1976 - as a budget option in other countries? There is a pretty clear transition from the 6117 in 1976 to the M158 (digital) in 1977.
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 3, 2022 9:04:31 GMT -8
dapellegrini - I wonder if the non-lumed hand sets can be tied to a specific era and when compared to other watches across the offering of lumed dials/hands in that period we see the same trend? Maybe there was a shortage or factory shut-down that stopped the application of lume (much like the semiconductor shortages of today)? To make due, pperhaps the watches were delivered with normal hands and unlumed faces. Can you detect if there is space for dial loom plots that is unfilled, or is it that the dial indices are different as the hands are? I started a new thread for these... Hopefully someone else has another example or two wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/23351/6117-6400-lume
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Apr 3, 2022 13:58:50 GMT -8
I am definitely interested in these: - Are they mechanical? - What caliber is in there?
Looks like the 7009A movement was a commonplace automatic mechanical with your typical three-hand setup (H/M/S). They do not incorporate a 24hr hand complication. They do have a day and date wheel, sport 17 jewels, and run at 21,600BPH. So the world time complication is the case bound chapter ring the user can index to give offsets from his current time, but it will be on the user to account for AM/PM and date line.
Inboost
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small
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Post by small on Apr 3, 2022 17:51:24 GMT -8
dapellegrini as inboost states the 7009 s a very common automatic movement. The 8860 the zero denotes world wide less North America (9). This does not have GMT hand to show a second time zone. If I were to guess these were made in the early 80's as the serial number of this one example starts with 31 (January 1983) the other example currently listed over at the bay is 33 (March of '83) The 7009 has to be one of the longest produced movements by Seiko, spanning a solid three decades, which without a catalog for reference, makes dating a chore and plan guess for some. The 7009 was replaced by the 7S series in the early to mid 90's. Seiko started selling 7009's in May 1975, so it possible to find some that were "produced" before that by up to a year...Pretty long run for sure. I'm not a real techy guy and lost a bunch of data with regards to the 7009 when the company had a ransomware attack last year... My main focus was on the 7009's made for the North American Market, where the reference number ends in a "9". Not all references were made for the NA Market, this World Time is an example. As well as a "faux" diver (8560) where the bezel is for show and does not turn and has a similar case shape? If I'm not mistaken I have each 7009 that were made for the NA market, not every variation of of reference but close, although I could be short one or two...I have also looked for unique references that also use the 7009 movement. Oh and then there are reference I like, that I have from as many regions and different configurations as I can find...Oh and those with the odd horseshoe backs...
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 3, 2022 18:47:53 GMT -8
Thank you for the additional info.
In my initial research I found 7009-8860 and 7009-886A models, and I figured the A was for North America. Do you have an example photo of a 7009-8869? When I google that reference I get watches without the world time bezel.
I had written these off as cheap, possibly imitation or hack watches, perhaps out of India - mainly because the cities bezel looked so low quality compared to other comparable Seikos (even really cheap ones). If they are in fact legit - it appears that perhaps these 7009 "world time" versions were sold in the late 70's and/or 80's, I guess along side the digital world timers - maybe at a very low price point?
Here is the timeline I have currently:
1964 - 1967 - Mechanical World Timers 6217 1968 - 1976 - Mechanical World Timers 6117 1977 - 1988 - Digital World Timers - Calibers M158, A358, A239, A708 and A718 1989 - 2000+ - Analog Quartz World Timers - I think they were all caliber 5T52
I also have a hunch that around 1984 we see our first Seiko World Timer where the world time function is more of a complication on a Sports watch, than part of a "World Timer" line - with the A718-5010. Sometime after that we start to see World Timer bezels on all sorts of different Seiko watches. Maybe these 7009's are really that transition point, and not the A718-5010... Hmmmm.
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small
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Post by small on Apr 4, 2022 6:55:17 GMT -8
Thank you for the additional info. In my initial research I found 7009-8860 and 7009-886A models, and I figured the A was for North America. Do you have an example photo of a 7009-8869? When I google that reference I get watches without the world time bezel. I had written these off as cheap, possibly imitation or hack watches, perhaps out of India - mainly because the cities bezel looked so low quality compared to other comparable Seikos (even really cheap ones). If they are in fact legit - it appears that perhaps these 7009 "world time" versions were sold in the late 70's and/or 80's, I guess along side the digital world timers - maybe at a very low price point? I also have a hunch that around 1984 we see our first Seiko World Timer where the world time function is more of a complication on a Sports watch, than part of a "World Timer" line - with the A718-5010. Sometime after that we start to see World Timer bezels on all sorts of different Seiko watches. Maybe these 7009's are really that transition point, and not the A718-5010... Hmmmm. The 7009 movement is a work horse arguably one of the most durable Seiko has made, maybe all of the 7XXX series movement could be placed in this camp. They are cheap though and so are the watches they went in to...Not all but most. I figure they were the working mans watch and did very well for the company... I have asked and wondered about the letter designations found in reference numbers, never getting a clear answer. IIRC a "0" in the last position of the case reference (4 digit Movement# followed by XXX0 code) was All Markets except North America, "1" is JDM and maybe southeast Asia, "9" is North America only. I have seen "3", "5", "8", "A, and "J" take up that position but do not know which markets they were originally made for...I have tried to build a collection of just those made for North American using the 7009 movement. I do not believe that there was a World Time made for the North American Market nor was their a Diver w/a dive style bezel... They are real and not fakes that I can tell and not sure anyone's suggested they are?
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 4, 2022 15:26:22 GMT -8
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HiBeat
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Post by HiBeat on Apr 4, 2022 20:00:45 GMT -8
@ dapellegrini please don't tell us the 24 hour hand on this one is correct:
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Post by HiBeat on Apr 4, 2022 20:05:29 GMT -8
Given that N=1 is now on the table for consideration and catalog cuts have been dismissed as necessary for validating official releases, remind again why 2 known examples of the orange dial with orange city ring are so strongly viewed as ersatz ?
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 4, 2022 20:11:18 GMT -8
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 4, 2022 21:26:07 GMT -8
HiBeat - On your 6117-640X's - they are really cool. I love all of these. Please help me correct any inaccuracies and/or offer counter points to leave things ambiguous/unknown where appropriate... Here are the things I look for on a quick scan of the 6117-640X model range: - Dial color vs Dial code - white dials should be 6420T and black dials are 6400T - some aftermarket dials are incorrectly marked 6400T on the white dial
- Check the 22-24 hour markers on the dial - blurry fonts there are another aftermarket tell
- Check the logo - flat/long O in SEIKO seems to be the right one for these watches
- Check the position of WORLD TIME - if at 6-o'clock, the watch should pre-1972 (or perhaps Q1-1972 at latest)
- Check the production date against the bezel layout - there were 3 bezel revisions in the 640X run, one in 1969/70, an update in 1971 and another update in 1972
- Check the bezel for clear printing, no overlapping markers and words. On early bezels, they have a concentric ring pattern when viewed under magnification or a good camera zoom.
- Confirm the hands match the dial. White dials had hands with a black line down the middle, black dials didn't
- And the obvious stuff like GMT hand, correct shaped crown, etc.
Your example on the left looks original to me, assuming the case back is dated 1972 through 1976 (when the London over GMT bezel was produced). Regardless, the dial and bezel look authentic, even if in a mismatched case. I can't quite tell from the photo if the case is brushed on this one - that is still a riddle I need to study through. I have 289 of these 6117-640X cataloged now and have recently added an attribute for tracking polished vs brushed cases (where I can tell from a photo) to get a better sense of where that fits (or doesn't). So far I have identified 38 watches with a brushed case finish, but have not been through the whole dataset yet. Common "hearsay" is that these all came polished, not brushed, which I suspect might be accurate, but I am not sure at this point. The NOS examples I have cataloged with box and papers are all polished, as is the example I inherited from my dad, FWIW. Your example on the right looks aftermarket to me. It is one of three that I have seen with the white dial and orange 24-hour ring - so very rare in context of my data collection efforts. The things that make me believe the dial and bezel (and hour/minute hands) are aftermarket on this example are: - All other examples of the 6117 dial have a flattened/stretched O in SEIKO, whereas this version has the round O version - which is a valid Seiko logo - but as far as I can tell not for this watch/model/series
- The lume plots at each hour marker are round like gum balls, unlike the other known genuine examples I have cataloged which are clearly applied differently
- The lume plot next to the date window is also more greenish in known original versions, but perhaps not this green?
- The font on the 24-hour ring looks wrong to me, 14, 22 and 23 are references points on other known aftermarket dials. Note the 22 is cut off and there is orange bleed through to the dial at 23.
- The bezel font is not clean - for instance the red arrow pointing at Rio de Janeiro overlaps the word, and all looks generally sloppy / not as sharp as known originals.
- Also, the hands are not like those used on known originals. The lume plots are too long, and the hands look too thin and perhaps too short compared to the originals. Hands on the white dial versions did have the black striped down the middle like these examples, but otherwise are not the same.
Here are the other two examples I have found of this orange 24 hour dial. Note how they seem to all exhibit these same defects, which leads me to believe these are manufacturing defects and not the result of aging or wear: www.thewatchsite.com/threads/world-times-lets-see-some.346353/post-3023498www.watchuseek.com/threads/sold-seiko-vintage-world-time-6117-6400-vg-condition.5261500/EDIT: Here are a couple more links with that dial. One is a duplicate of the 6119 already linked:www.mywatchmart.com/listing/295325-rare-vintage-seiko-6117-6400-world-time-white-blue-dial/watchcharts.com/listing/3532811/seiko-vintage-world-time-6117-6400-vg-conditionEDIT 2: On that link with the photos taken outside (mywatchmart), the case back is marked 8D and waterproof. That would suggest a December 1968 production, which is 11 months before the earliest known. I suspect perhaps that is my first actual fake case back for a 6117, but can't really prove it. It does intrigue me. At the end of the day I am just another watch idiot/enthusiast that has likely spent way too much time (and money) on this specific line of watches. As my family likes to remind me, I am often wrong. I am happy to have an online sounding board for this stuff - and genuinely appreciate the feedback. I also very much dislike being the guy to say - hey maybe you have an aftermarket setup - that was not what I set out to do.
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 5, 2022 12:26:41 GMT -8
I needed a clear head to stare at your bezel - to better isolate why it looks wrong to me. Assuming your example looks like the one below when viewed straight on - note the center line between the two layers of city names - it seems to not be centered all the way around - instead it wonders in and out. Note how the arrow indicator at Tokyo overlaps Hong Kong on one side of the bezel - then on the opposite side overlaps Rio de Janeiro. It also has a near miss with Azores GMT also seems too close to the inner edge. Here's a current Seikosis aftermarket bezel, that IMO looks much better, and appears to be more of a matching orange color: seikosis.com/collections/dial/products/white-inner-chapter-ring-seiko-world-time-gmt-6117-6400-6117-6409-navigatorAnd here are a couple more examples of similar dials with Round O SEIKO logos and blurry/bold dial codes - I believe these are also aftermarket dials (EDIT: probably legit bezels though):
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inboost
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Post by inboost on Apr 5, 2022 12:32:24 GMT -8
...As my family likes to remind me, I am often wrong... Oh my, sounds like my house too!!!
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Post by dapellegrini on Apr 21, 2022 15:56:48 GMT -8
I've recently revisited the dataset of 6117-640X's to do a better check for aftermarket dials, bezels and hand sets - as well as compare this against brushed finishes. Here is what I have found so far: Of the subset of 295 6117-640X's: - 36 of 295 cataloged examples have aftermarket dials - 12.2% - 48 of the 295 cataloged examples have brushed cases - 16.2% - Examples of both can be found spanning the entire production run, 1969 - 1976, which makes sense - aftermarket parts and finishes are not applied to a subset of data - just to random watches throughout... Of the subset of 36 aftermarket dials: - 28 of 36 also have aftermarket hand(s) - 77.8% - 27 of 36 also have aftermarket bezels - 75.0% - 25 of 36 also have brushed cases - 69.4% Of interesting note (to me at least) there are several aftermarket dials and bezels, each improving on the tells from the prior. The aftermarket handsets are also hard to spot until you develop an eye for them. So what can be taken from the data above? Well... - If you spot an aftermarket dial, it is (highly) likely that it also have an aftermarket bezel and/or handset - Brushed case finishes are much more common on watches with aftermarket dials, and span the entire run without discretion, leading me to believe this was likely not a factory / original finish option at any point. There are also several (at least 3) examples floating around the internet where a 6117-640X is found with a fake ( like this) or incorrect ( like this) case back - and these are also found in brushed finish cases. This leads me to theorize that someone acquired a set of service cases without case backs - applied a brushed finish to the lot, then started building franken-watches out of them, trying their hand at replicating the dial, the hands, the cities bezel and even the case back. The dials and bezels started out pretty bad, but have gotten much better over time. Still identifiable to the trained eye - but not obvious for most.
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