Adrian-VTA
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Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 23, 2017 21:21:59 GMT -8
Geday,
Now everyone has had a chance to cool off, we've opened this thread up for discussion again. We hate locking threads and encourage PRODUCTIVE discussion!
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
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Post by cobrajet25 on Jul 24, 2017 2:04:25 GMT -8
Adrian sealed the deal before I could weigh in, but the "Aussie Pogue" is completely legit.
I have been collecting vintage Seikos for over 15 years, with a particular focus on the 6139s. I have seen THOUSANDS of them, and when you see that many watches you begin to notice certain patterns when it comes to details. Those patterns have now been immortalized in "How to Buy a 6139" guides all over the internet (some being better than others).
But in 2002 it wasn't so.
These "Aussie" watches are almost always 6139-6002s. They are almost always from 1974-1977. They are almost always found in the Oceania region of the world. They almost always have "Chronograph Automatic" dials. And they almost always have the Stelux bracelet.
I have seen way too many of these watches...all with these very particular characteristics...to believe that they were cobbled together by different people at different times completely independently of each other.
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Post by jeffrey69 on Jul 24, 2017 2:57:05 GMT -8
In my opinion the question is very simple.... No more example .....not officially Seiko catalog....not clean pictures from some people (Adrian in your picture i not seen clear the inner black ring). This one is only one unit product?....We can believe that? When i seen others same units pictures we can start for talking about.......i wait. Best regards. Max.
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Post by peenemunde on Jul 24, 2017 3:05:09 GMT -8
II've been collecting Seiko for over 30 years. Many references (diver's, crono, dress, quartz etc etc) but I've never seen the 6139 said Aussie.
I've never seen color catalogs with this configuration, ever. If it really was a reference to the Australian and Asian markets, there should be many specimens, and not rare cases. In the photo of the 70's (of marriage) you can not see the inner ring black, but only the outer bezel insert (bezel). If there was a black inner ring, the diameter of the dial would be reduced. There are no color catalogs. There is no objective demonstration, just sightings. My view is that it does not exist.
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Post by peenemunde on Jul 24, 2017 3:06:06 GMT -8
In my opinion the question is very simple.... No more example .....not officially Seiko catalog....not clean pictures from some people (Adrian in your picture i not seen clear the inner black ring). This one is only one unit product?....We can believe that? When i seen others same units pictures we can start for talking about.......i wait. Best regards. Max. That's exactly my opinion
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Rod
WS Benefactor
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Post by Rod on Jul 24, 2017 3:24:05 GMT -8
I've been collection Seiko for 35years and I have seen several Oceania 6139-6002 and owned two. They are real and were sold new in the Oceania region.
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tritto
WS Benefactor
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Post by tritto on Jul 24, 2017 3:26:11 GMT -8
My local watch guy worked in the Seiko service centre in Sydney (Australia) for many years at least as far back as the 1980s. I'll go ask him whether they got these yellow 6139 6002 in for service in the 1980s (probably their first services) with black inner bezels. I've seen many second hand units for sale in Australia with the black chapter ring and I can't believe there was a concerted pattern of swapping out the yellow rings here that didn't occur in other major markets. Btw, they often seem to have a darker yellow dial than you see elsewhere or with yellow rings. As an aside, I was discussing my 6146 8000 GS with a member whom as done a lot of research on Grand Seiko. When I showed him my gold capped model with a gold dial he was surprised as he's never seen another one with that dial. I'm yet to find a catalogue scan with this dial, but I'm certain the dial is not a fake and after telling the watches story and showing him some more photos he appears to lean on the side of it being genuine. If an expert on the range has never seen a catalogue scan or another example, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
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Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,214
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Post by Rod on Jul 24, 2017 3:38:58 GMT -8
My local watch guy worked in the Seiko service centre in Sydney (Australia) for many years at least as far back as the 1980s. I'll go ask him whether they got these yellow 6139 6002 in for service in the 1980s (probably their first services) with black inner bezels. I've seen many second hand units for sale in Australia with the black chapter ring and I can't believe there was a concerted pattern of swapping out the yellow rings here that didn't occur in other major markets. Btw, they often seem to have a darker yellow dial than you see elsewhere or with yellow rings. As an aside, I was discussing my 6146 8000 GS with a member whom as done a lot of research on Grand Seiko. When I showed him my gold capped model with a gold dial he was surprised as he's never seen another one with that dial. I'm yet to find a catalogue scan with this dial, but I'm certain the dial is not a fake and after telling the watches story and showing him some more photos he appears to lean on the life of it being genuine. If an expert on the range has never seen a catalogue scan or another example, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are many Seiko that didn't make it to the catalog or the parts books, Try finding info on the ladies Seiko 2517-0320 diver! I found one photo years ago and that was it. No mention in any parts books or Seiko magazines for that year etc. It fine to ague a point with factual alternative points, but to say, they don't exist because you haven't seen one is ponderous and becomes a fanciful trip down an improbable lane.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on Jul 24, 2017 4:30:12 GMT -8
PS. My dad used to say that an expert was someone who knew more and more about something until they eventually knew everything about nothing. Let's not take ourselves too seriously here.
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pip
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Berkshire, UK
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Post by pip on Jul 24, 2017 4:49:58 GMT -8
That's the fun of Seiko, they seem to have a habit of doing weird things and not documenting them. I can almost imagine some guy in the 70's thinking to himself, "Let's change the inner bezel to black, that'll screw up all the collectors in a few years!"
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 5:12:20 GMT -8
If you look closely at this pictures though, you'll notice one thing: It's true that the picture is old, but you can see the day/date window and the minute sub dial. If the inner chapter ring is black, it should almost "touch" the sub dial, like this: While you see that there is quite a lot of space under the minute counter, so it seems it had a yellow inner chapter ring. It's obviously my opinion, but that's what I can see there, obviously the pic is not that sharp, so I could be wrong
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Post by peenemunde on Jul 24, 2017 5:31:47 GMT -8
If you look closely at this pictures though, you'll notice one thing: It's true that the picture is old, but you can see the day/date window and the minute sub dial. If the inner chapter ring is black, it should almost "touch" the sub dial, like this: While you see that there is quite a lot of space under the minute counter, so it seems it had a yellow inner chapter ring. It's obviously my opinion, but that's what I can see there, obviously the pic is not that sharp, so I could be wrong Good observation. Exactly....
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28A
WIS
Ruining original Seikos since 2015.
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Post by 28A on Jul 24, 2017 5:36:30 GMT -8
You want proof? Here is your proof. My watchmaker (mid 60's) has worked at the Brisbane Seiko service centre for almost his entire career as far as i can remember. He is a THIRD generation watchmaker and has boxes full of stuff. I've basically cleared out and passed on all the good vintage stuff to members on the board here. I was given this watch from him, an original untouched gold / black rotating ring 6002. We pulled it apart and i took photos of it to prove the black ring was legit, and also that black rings fade to grey. This watch has been sitting in the box for at least 30 years. wristsushi.proboards.com/thread/9713/6139-6002-black-rotating-debateEdit: Seikoholic in that thread is Spencer Klein.
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scubarob99
Moderator
Just bought a 6309-7049...this is the last one, I promise.
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Post by scubarob99 on Jul 24, 2017 5:49:41 GMT -8
Nothing will be solved here. You can choose to ignore the knowledge of members who spent more years collecting and pondering the many different variants of the 6139-600X ( possibly longer than the caliber itself has been produced by Seiko) I feel satisfied from what I've read on different fora over the last 6 years that the black indicator rotating ring on a yellow variant was indeed marketed for Australia. i guess I wish Seiko produced less than a 100 different models a year and managed to keep better track of every model, part, market designation, but it wasn't the case. Agree to disagree but I don't think it's a coincidence that black indicator variant would originate from Oz.
Rob
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cobrajet25
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"Underweared curmudgeon!"
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Post by cobrajet25 on Jul 24, 2017 6:39:51 GMT -8
In my opinion the question is very simple.... No more example .....not officially Seiko catalog....not clean pictures from some people (Adrian in your picture i not seen clear the inner black ring). This one is only one unit product?....We can believe that? When i seen others same units pictures we can start for talking about.......i wait. Best regards. Max. That's exactly my opinion There are THOUSANDS of models that we all accept as legit which we have never seen in a catalog. It doesn't really prove anything. It sounds like a catalog pic is all you will accept. That is fine, but it is a very high standard for something there seems to be ample anecdotal evidence of.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 6:54:39 GMT -8
That's exactly my opinion There are THOUSANDS of models that we all accept as legit which we have never seen in a catalog. It doesn't really prove anything. It sounds like a catalog pic is all you will accept. That is fine, but it is a very high standard for something there seems to be ample anecdotal evidence of. I think he meant something different: - Until now, there are no documents proving that the yellow/gold dial with a black inner chapter ring came out like that from the factory, or at least, no one showed them; - Seiko can't give us an answer; - Everything we are basing the existence on, are assumptions; - We cannot say that the reference was never produced either; - No one can confirm or can be sure that the chapter ring was never replaced on a certain watch, or that a watch was never opened, especially beat up watches; So, basing on these points, every member of the two "factions" could be wrong. The truth is that we are not going to have a sure proof probably, so what we can do right now is considering only the official documents as reliable sources.
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cobrajet25
Needs a Life!
"Underweared curmudgeon!"
Posts: 3,357
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Post by cobrajet25 on Jul 24, 2017 7:08:33 GMT -8
There are THOUSANDS of models that we all accept as legit which we have never seen in a catalog. It doesn't really prove anything. It sounds like a catalog pic is all you will accept. That is fine, but it is a very high standard for something there seems to be ample anecdotal evidence of. I think he meant something different: - Until now, there are no documents proving that the yellow/gold dial with a black inner chapter ring came out like that from the factory, or at least, no one showed them; - Seiko can't give us an answer; - Everything we are basing the existence on, are assumptions; - We cannot say that the reference was never produced either; - No one can confirm or can be sure that the chapter ring was never replaced on a certain watch, or that a watch was never opened, especially beat up watches; So, basing on these points, every member of the two "factions" could be wrong. The truth is that we are not going to have a sure proof probably, so what we can do right now is considering only the official documents as reliable sources. I understand. But it should be noted that these kinds of observational deductions about model differences and variations have been made in the past...successfully...and were later corroborated with the kind of dead-to-rights evidence some here seem to need. An example is the "short" hour and minute hands on very early 6138-001x models. Many said that they were swapped in, there were no catalog pics, etc, etc. Same as is being said here. But these hands had been seen on examples of that model which all had certain things in common. They had been seen by many people. And they had been seen over the course of many years. Later on, the catalog pic was found that proved that the observations were correct. The catalog pic may never show up in this case. But that does not mean the observations are wrong. Attachments:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 7:22:24 GMT -8
That's my point, observations are ok and are absolutely legit, and it's good that we are talking about this here, and now.
In case of the 6138 the proof has been finally found, so we have no doubts about its existence
In fact, as I said, my point of view is that everyone could be right about the 6139-6002 with the yellow/gold dial and the black inner ring case, the ones who are against and the ones that are with it.
So, the question is, who's right?
I'm afraid that until we have a proof, or a document proving it to be a factory produced model, the two factions will never agree, that is the human nature
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Post by Groundhog66 on Jul 24, 2017 8:12:07 GMT -8
Geday, Now everyone has had a chance to cool off, we've opened this thread up for discussion again. We hate locking threads and encourage PRODUCTIVE discussion! In all the years we've been in existence, VERY few threads have been locked, and if I'm not mistaken, it's never been a watch discussion thread. Productive, respectful discussion is advised, it's how we do things here, and I appreciate you all for this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 8:36:40 GMT -8
Geday, Now everyone has had a chance to cool off, we've opened this thread up for discussion again. We hate locking threads and encourage PRODUCTIVE discussion! In all the years we've been in existence, VERY few threads have been locked, and if I'm not mistaken, it's never been a watch discussion thread. Productive, respectful discussion is advised, it's how we do things here, and I appreciate you all for this. Compared to some threads on other forums, this one would rate right up there with fluffy white kitten wrestling I think that many times disagreements like this come about because the original context of a word(Pogue) in this case gets lost or bastardized. Usually it's by puppy mill eBay sellers. The only model that should or can be legitimately called a 'Pogue' is the exact model that the Colonel wore into space. Not one with a different casing number even if it had the same parts bin collection that Seiko stuck together. Sadly, those same puppy mill sellers have convoluted 'Pogue' to mean any 6139 irrespective of colour, dial, hand ,bezel, chapter ring configurations. Adding a new variation like 'Aussie' only confuses matters more. Unless the Colonel got his watch from the Australia or one of the southeast Asian countries where this model was distributed then the only nickname that would apply is simply 'Pogue'. We have language for a reason; to convey meaning. If every individual starts interpreting words to mean what they want then language breaks down and arguments begin. I know or suspect this thread is only about the existence of a model that was supposedly distributed to the Oceana region. I don't know one way or another if this is true or not but would tend to believe those with experience and long collecting histories. As others have said, where Seiko is concerned, we have seen time after time that they do strange, even illogical things. As for nicknames; don't get too caught up in them because the original meaning often morphs into something not even closely related
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