Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
|
Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 24, 2017 18:08:53 GMT -8
I say show me a color photo in a Seiko catalog showing a Silver dial 6139-600X. To my knowledge a catalog photo doesn't exist. I could be mistaken but I've never seen one. If it does, show me........... Does this mean that there were never any Silver dial 6139-600X's? Well, if you're going to follow the line of thinking that if it isn't shown in a catalog it doesn't exist, then I guess the Silver dial 6139-600X's don't exist either............... I suspect that the silver dial version was destined to a different line/market compared to yellow and blue dial. - No we have proven this is not the case as they turn up everywhere. They were probably just a short run, maybe they weren't popular? who knows.I may be wrong but, while I've seen blue and yellow dial 6139s marked with both "6139-6000/6002/6005/6009" and "6139-6030" as well, instead I've only seen silver dial 6139s marked "6139-6030". - Wrong. Most silver dials are a -6002. The -6030 and -6031 are a different watch (black dial/black ring/orange highlights, nickname "Coke"), so the caseback has been swapped.This said, I suspect that the silver dial was probably reserved to certain territories, maybe? - No.But again, I don't have enough proofs to say where the silver dial came from, but the dial looks perfectly legit, and that is what differentiate it from the watch we are talking about here, one thing is a dial, another thing is the inner plastic ring. As far as we know the silver dial is legit, on the other side, the black inner ring was not factory mounted on the yellow dial. - The forum "Old Guys" can be taken as a reliable source, we've talked about this for a decade or more. We know without any doubt whatsoever, the black ring was fitted to the yellow dial very late in the production run. I provided proof earlier on that it was also fitted to the blue dial very late in the production run. I've got 3 late blue (dark teal really at this time) dials here with the black ring. I've handled hundreds of these things and the pattern does not deviate in any way. We also know, without any doubt, the silver dial is legit but is uncommon. It was probably a short run product.
|
|
Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,214
|
Post by Rod on Jul 24, 2017 19:55:46 GMT -8
I think he meant something different: - Until now, there are no documents proving that the yellow/gold dial with a black inner chapter ring came out like that from the factory, or at least, no one showed them; - Seiko can't give us an answer; - Everything we are basing the existence on, are assumptions; - We cannot say that the reference was never produced either; - No one can confirm or can be sure that the chapter ring was never replaced on a certain watch, or that a watch was never opened, especially beat up watches; So, basing on these points, every member of the two "factions" could be wrong. The truth is that we are not going to have a sure proof probably, so what we can do right now is considering only the official documents as reliable sources. I understand. But it should be noted that these kinds of observational deductions about model differences and variations have been made in the past...successfully...and were later corroborated with the kind of dead-to-rights evidence some here seem to need. An example is the "short" hour and minute hands on very early 6138-001x models. Many said that they were swapped in, there were no catalog pics, etc, etc. Same as is being said here. But these hands had been seen on examples of that model which all had certain things in common. They had been seen by many people. And they had been seen over the course of many years. Later on, the catalog pic was found that proved that the observations were correct. The catalog pic may never show up in this case. But that does not mean the observations are wrong. And where is the proof that 6105-8110 also came as a proof dial and proof case? What about the 4006-7010 business bell? No factory evidence for either of these watch's yet they exist and are accepted as Seiko manufactured watches. If you don't want to believe that these Oceana 6139 exist, that's fine but until YOU can prove that we'll all happily continue collecting them.
|
|
tritto
WS Benefactor
Posts: 5,879
|
Post by tritto on Jul 24, 2017 20:47:25 GMT -8
I don't see any photographic evidence in Seiko catalogues or advertising that shows some 6105 8000s came with a resist dial, but a proof caseback, but it was the case. I have one, and numerous other people have them. We can deduce that this occurred during a transitional period - for the 8000 up until late 1970 because people have displayed their examples and discussed it. Just as over a period of time people have displayed and discussed the black bezel gold 6139-6002s found in Oceania markets and deduced that such a model was offered in that market, despite Seiko not having provided written confirmation of this variant. Oh yeah, there's another feature that Oceania 6139s (and other models) typically display that indicates specific variations were offered to different regions - the day wheel. Day wheels in this region typically have numerals (I,II,III,IV etc) as the second language choice, because there is no predominant second language in the region. However, ones destined for the Americas usually have Spanish as the second language, European models often have French or (less commonly?) German. There are other market specific languages too - Chinese, kanji, Arabic spring to mind. We have observed this pattern and come to a reasonable conclusion that Seiko varied the day wheel depending on the intended market, despite it not being written down or confirmed in writing by Seiko.
|
|
Rod
WS Benefactor
Posts: 2,214
|
Post by Rod on Jul 24, 2017 20:56:06 GMT -8
From the 1976 Australian Casing Parts Catalog. Just got off the phone from a watch maker (PK) that served his apprenticeship with Seiko in the 1960's and he distinctly remembers the black ring and gold dialled 6139's and has worked on (his words) literary hundreds of them. The casing book only tells you what was available as a spare part for that year, in the 1981 Casing Parts Catalog the rotating ring part numbers are no longer listed, you will notice that the dial code is "S" not T or R and that there is no unique dial code for either dial. When ordering a new dial you needed to quote the casing numbers, dial code and colour
|
|
|
Post by SeikoPsycho on Jul 25, 2017 2:11:20 GMT -8
The forum "Old Guys" ??
Hope that's not me. I don't feel that old.............lol
Although, I was actually able to buy a Brand New Yellow dial 6139-6005 at the Army PX for $75 with my first pay check back in the day.
|
|
|
Post by nike90 on Jul 25, 2017 2:55:32 GMT -8
I don't see any photographic evidence in Seiko catalogues or advertising that shows some 6105 8000s came with a resist dial, but a proof caseback, but it was the case. I have one, and numerous other people have them. We can deduce that this occurred during a transitional period - for the 8000 up until late 1970 because people have displayed their examples and discussed it. Just as over a period of time people have displayed and discussed the black bezel gold 6139-6002s found in Oceania markets and deduced that such a model was offered in that market, despite Seiko not having provided written confirmation of this variant. Oh yeah, there's another feature that Oceania 6139s (and other models) typically display that indicates specific variations were offered to different regions - the day wheel. Day wheels in this region typically have numerals (I,II,III,IV etc) as the second language choice, because there is no predominant second language in the region. However, ones destined for the Americas usually have Spanish as the second language, European models often have French or (less commonly?) German. There are other market specific languages too - Chinese, kanji, Arabic spring to mind. We have observed this pattern and come to a reasonable conclusion that Seiko varied the day wheel depending on the intended market, despite it not being written down or confirmed in writing by Seiko. About 6105-8000,it is different because the model is on catalogue. The text proof- resist changed of default but the watch was the same. About language, i always see Roman numbers in european models,(Also nos). Numbers,as english..was universal. My watchmaker said me that in the 70s there is no attention to correct match with reference and parts. The last photo of parts confirmed. It was common that a person bought a Seiko and selected a configuration different from original based on preference, as it happened for the the posted watch in the photo of 70s and written in a previous comment. But it is clear that nobody can say without proof that Seiko produced this only for a market.
|
|
|
Post by peenemunde on Jul 25, 2017 3:19:00 GMT -8
I don't see any photographic evidence in Seiko catalogues or advertising that shows some 6105 8000s came with a resist dial, but a proof caseback, but it was the case. I have one, and numerous other people have them. We can deduce that this occurred during a transitional period - for the 8000 up until late 1970 because people have displayed their examples and discussed it. Just as over a period of time people have displayed and discussed the black bezel gold 6139-6002s found in Oceania markets and deduced that such a model was offered in that market, despite Seiko not having provided written confirmation of this variant. Oh yeah, there's another feature that Oceania 6139s (and other models) typically display that indicates specific variations were offered to different regions - the day wheel. Day wheels in this region typically have numerals (I,II,III,IV etc) as the second language choice, because there is no predominant second language in the region. However, ones destined for the Americas usually have Spanish as the second language, European models often have French or (less commonly?) German. There are other market specific languages too - Chinese, kanji, Arabic spring to mind. We have observed this pattern and come to a reasonable conclusion that Seiko varied the day wheel depending on the intended market, despite it not being written down or confirmed in writing by Seiko. About 6105-8000,it is different because the model is on catalogue. The text proof- resist changed of default but the watch was the same. About language, i always see Roman numbers in european models,(Also nos). Numbers,as english..was universal. My watchmaker said me that in the 70s there is no attention to correct match with reference and parts. The last photo of parts confirmed. It was common that a person bought a Seiko and selected a configuration different from original based on preference, as it happened for the the posted watch in the photo of 70s and written in a previous comment. But it is clear that nobody can say without proof that Seiko produced this only for a market. Exact observations
|
|
Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
|
Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 25, 2017 3:35:52 GMT -8
Which is basically what we've been saying since the thread started and everyone has argued it's not the case. I know for a fact day wheels could be changed "in country" by the service agent because I found a pile of them once in various languages. You could go to the service agent and say "make it german please" and the wheels were available. But for the most part, the languages are what tritto has said. And that's from us handling perhaps several thousands of these things collectively over the years. As for the other things, the shade of red on the yellow and blue dials of the -600x are different. yet they have the same part number. Remember the context these watches were sold in. They were supposed to be a great low cost watch that worked great for 10 years. At the time, there was no intent of the watch being handed down to children or anything of the sort. SEIKO's philosophy is that you should buy a GS if you want to do that. To that end, there was never a detailed effort to track every change or spec difference on the part of SEIKO. They were, in all aspects, like a utility device that wears out and is then replaced. Not really intended to be repaired. Of course now we do repair them, but this wasn't the case for decades. Pre late 1990's, probably most of these watches got thrown in the garbage if they misbehaved and replaced with a quartz watch. Nobody believes me, but as a kid, you could swap an old mechanical SEIKO for a Coke on the school yard. Everyone wanted an LCD quartz and mechanical watches were trouble. I don't see any photographic evidence in Seiko catalogues or advertising that shows some 6105 8000s came with a resist dial, but a proof caseback, but it was the case. I have one, and numerous other people have them. We can deduce that this occurred during a transitional period - for the 8000 up until late 1970 because people have displayed their examples and discussed it. Just as over a period of time people have displayed and discussed the black bezel gold 6139-6002s found in Oceania markets and deduced that such a model was offered in that market, despite Seiko not having provided written confirmation of this variant. Oh yeah, there's another feature that Oceania 6139s (and other models) typically display that indicates specific variations were offered to different regions - the day wheel. Day wheels in this region typically have numerals (I,II,III,IV etc) as the second language choice, because there is no predominant second language in the region. However, ones destined for the Americas usually have Spanish as the second language, European models often have French or (less commonly?) German. There are other market specific languages too - Chinese, kanji, Arabic spring to mind. We have observed this pattern and come to a reasonable conclusion that Seiko varied the day wheel depending on the intended market, despite it not being written down or confirmed in writing by Seiko. About 6105-8000,it is different because the model is on catalogue. The text proof- resist changed of default but the watch was the same. About language, i always see Roman numbers in european models,(Also nos). Numbers,as english..was universal. My watchmaker said me that in the 70s there is no attention to correct match with reference and parts. The last photo of parts confirmed. It was common that a person bought a Seiko and selected a configuration different from original based on preference, as it happened for the the posted watch in the photo of 70s and written in a previous comment. But it is clear that nobody can say without proof that Seiko produced this only for a market.
|
|
|
Post by besurfer on Jul 25, 2017 4:10:05 GMT -8
To support that many of these watches have been thrown into junk, considering the quantity produced by Seiko, is unlikely according to my thoughts. We are talking about a very wide destination market, and the advent of quartz was not intended for everyone. The first quartz cost a lot more than the mechanics.
|
|
HiBeat
Global Moderator
SEIKO Iko Iko GDTRWS
Posts: 8,684
|
Post by HiBeat on Jul 25, 2017 4:47:48 GMT -8
I have PROOF of yet another Aussie Pogue:
|
|
GuyJ
Needs a Life!
Whitley Bay, UK
Posts: 2,862
|
Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 4:55:41 GMT -8
About 6105-8000,it is different because the model is on catalogue. The text proof- resist changed of default but the watch was the same. About language, i always see Roman numbers in european models,(Also nos). Numbers,as english..was universal. My watchmaker said me that in the 70s there is no attention to correct match with reference and parts. The last photo of parts confirmed. It was common that a person bought a Seiko and selected a configuration different from original based on preference, as it happened for the the posted watch in the photo of 70s and written in a previous comment. But it is clear that nobody can say without proof that Seiko produced this only for a market. There are of course other subtle differences between early and later proof/resist 6105-800x and 6105-811x. But just to clarify are you now saying that when anyone bought their Seiko 6139 they would say "also, Mr. Retailer I would like you to change that yellow turning ring for the black one, please", or are you saying that when people would have their watch serviced they would say this, or would the watchmaker just replace it for the fun of it?
|
|
|
Post by nike90 on Jul 25, 2017 5:17:50 GMT -8
About 6105-8000,it is different because the model is on catalogue. The text proof- resist changed of default but the watch was the same. About language, i always see Roman numbers in european models,(Also nos). Numbers,as english..was universal. My watchmaker said me that in the 70s there is no attention to correct match with reference and parts. The last photo of parts confirmed. It was common that a person bought a Seiko and selected a configuration different from original based on preference, as it happened for the the posted watch in the photo of 70s and written in a previous comment. But it is clear that nobody can say without proof that Seiko produced this only for a market. There are of course other subtle differences between early and later proof/resist 6105-800x and 6105-811x. But just to clarify are you now saying that when anyone bought their Seiko 6139 they would say "also, Mr. Retailer I would like you to change that yellow turning ring for the black one, please", or are you saying that when people would have their watch serviced they would say this, or would the watchmaker just replace it for the fun of it? Not for fun but because requested,eventually, from buyers. It is also written the same dynamic in a previous comment
|
|
Adrian-VTA
Global Moderator
Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,327
|
Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 25, 2017 5:22:54 GMT -8
You're very much mistaken. Until the late 90's nearly none of these watches were repaired properly and most ended up in the bin, a sock drawer or a junk bin. I know this for a fact as I know several watchmakers from the era. Also a good chunk of the hundreds of movements I've seen have had some sort of "bodge" repair done on them because they just weren't worth fixing properly. Quartz was affordable by the late 70's and considerably more accurate than any mechanical watch. In fact, SEIKO did float the idea of stopping mechanical watch production completely in the early 80's as they were totally obsolete. To support that many of these watches have been thrown into junk, considering the quantity produced by Seiko, is unlikely according to my thoughts. We are talking about a very wide destination market, and the advent of quartz was not intended for everyone. The first quartz cost a lot more than the mechanics.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 5:31:35 GMT -8
You're very much mistaken. Until the late 90's nearly none of these watches were repaired properly and most ended up in the bin, a sock drawer or a junk bin. I know this for a fact as I know several watchmakers from the era. Also a good chunk of the hundreds of movements I've seen have had some sort of "bodge" repair done on them because they just weren't worth fixing properly. Quartz was affordable by the late 70's and considerably more accurate than any mechanical watch. In fact, SEIKO did float the idea of stopping mechanical watch production completely in the early 80's as they were totally obsolete. To support that many of these watches have been thrown into junk, considering the quantity produced by Seiko, is unlikely according to my thoughts. We are talking about a very wide destination market, and the advent of quartz was not intended for everyone. The first quartz cost a lot more than the mechanics. Exactly, I quote everything here. You have to keep in mind that back in time, the watch was just a useful object that had the mere purpose of showing the correct time. When customers brought their watches in for services or repairs, they didn't care about genuine spare parts, what they wanted to have back was a watch that could operate flawlessly for 10 or more years ahead. That's why today, a lot of 6139s comes with different chapter rings, different sets of hands or crowns, or different inserts on the outer bezel. 6139s as all the other vintage references. Often independent watchmakers repaired watches using what they had in their workshop.
|
|
|
Post by besurfer on Jul 25, 2017 5:45:45 GMT -8
I opened this thread because I have an Aussie 6139 6002 .... and I also have an inner ring yellow nos inside the drawer. I asked myself: if I replace the inner bezel I'm transforming an aussie into an ex aussie? Or am I just making an original watch that is not now?
|
|
|
Post by 69ChevelleSS on Jul 25, 2017 5:47:03 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . .
If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair?
I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would!
|
|
HiBeat
Global Moderator
SEIKO Iko Iko GDTRWS
Posts: 8,684
|
Post by HiBeat on Jul 25, 2017 5:54:02 GMT -8
I opened this thread because I have an Aussie 6139 6002 .... and I also have an inner ring yellow nos inside the drawer. I asked myself: if I replace the inner bezel I'm transforming an aussie into an ex aussie? Or am I just making an original watch that is not now? I would say use the rotating ring color that pleases you more when you wear it. Changing the inner ring is easily reversible - and both look NOS !
|
|
GuyJ
Needs a Life!
Whitley Bay, UK
Posts: 2,862
|
Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 5:56:11 GMT -8
I fear we are in an 'Anecdotal Evidence Loop' - ironic considering the naysayers of the black indicator ring - gold dialled versions were such advocates for hard evidence. I noticed a thread where mmounce had stated he purchased a NOS black IR gold dial version, can't find the picture however... Maybe he is reading? As for your quandary, besurfer, maybe you'll never be quite satisfied depending on the side of the fence you're on. Is that watch from post 74? What's its history, and is that a STELUX stamped president bracelet?
|
|
|
Post by besurfer on Jul 25, 2017 5:58:08 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it newย . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! Of course ... and I am very happy with my purchase. I asked this question for two twin reasons: 1. I turn to a group of experts to ask for advice if I have any doubts. 2. The field of vintage watches is becoming very speculative and I would not imagine myself in an invention. I ask questions to understand and to enrich my little experience.
|
|
|
Post by masaccio on Jul 25, 2017 6:03:34 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! i buy it, than i put a right IR
|
|