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Post by 69ChevelleSS on Jul 25, 2017 6:05:04 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! Of course ... and I am very happy with my purchase. I asked this question for two twin reasons: 1. I turn to a group of experts to ask for advice if I have any doubts. 2. The field of vintage watches is becoming very speculative and I would not imagine myself in an invention. I ask questions to understand and to enrich my little experience. Well . . . . . there is a difference between asking for advice from a group of serious collectors and refusing to accept that advice unless you have 100% incontrovertible proof in the form of a catalogue photo. Put it this way . . . . if I stumbled across one of these, came to the forum and asked for advice and got an answer like Adrian has provided I would probably accept it, buy the watch and leave it at that. JM$0.02!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 6:05:36 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! I would buy that, and mount a yellow inner ring after
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GuyJ
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Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 6:07:42 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! Of course ... and I am very happy with my purchase. I asked this question for two twin reasons: 1. I turn to a group of experts to ask for advice if I have any doubts. 2. The field of vintage watches is becoming very speculative and I would not imagine myself in an invention. I ask questions to understand and to enrich my little experience. Well, to be fair, you essentially called collectors who have been doing this for some time and have the expertise 'believers in fairly tales' at some point in this thread. Whatever you do, enjoy the watch.
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GuyJ
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Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 6:08:18 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! i buy it, than i put a right IR Wow. "You can lead a horse to water"...
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GuyJ
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Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 6:09:50 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! I would buy that, and mount a yellow inner ring after And then sell it as 'all original'?
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Post by besurfer on Jul 25, 2017 6:11:18 GMT -8
Of course ... and I am very happy with my purchase. I asked this question for two twin reasons: 1. I turn to a group of experts to ask for advice if I have any doubts. 2. The field of vintage watches is becoming very speculative and I would not imagine myself in an invention. I ask questions to understand and to enrich my little experience. Well . . . . . there is a difference between asking for advice from a group of serious collectors and refusing to accept that advice unless you have 100% incontrovertible proof in the form of a catalogue photo. Put it this way . . . . if I stumbled across one of these, came to the forum and asked for advice and got an answer like Adrian has provided I would probably accept it, buy the watch and leave it at that. JM$0.02! Asking for advice and not stopping at appearances is a sign of intelligence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 6:13:38 GMT -8
I would buy that, and mount a yellow inner ring after And then sell it as 'all original'? And then keep it, I don't buy watches to sell them, I never speculate on watches. It's my passion, not my job. My collection is small and counts only watches that are "must haves" to me. I never sold a watch, except 3 russian watches for the great price of 35€ each. Beside that, I sold my Orient Flight too, to fund my Seiko 6139-6020
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GuyJ
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Post by GuyJ on Jul 25, 2017 6:17:43 GMT -8
I didn't mean to imply you're a dealer of sorts or would be intentionally deceiving. So apologies if it came across that way, it wasn't my intention.
What I simply meant was, why would that be a necessary change to do considering that you 'could' - and with quite a substantial amount of evidence to suggest that you 'would' - be changing the originality of the watch to something absolutely not original to itself.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Jul 25, 2017 7:23:16 GMT -8
So . . . . . my question to the doubters . . . . . If you happened to be in Australia on vacation and came upon a yellow 6139 with a black inner bezel that had box and original paper work AND it was being sold by either a friend of a friend or an elderly gentleman that you stumbled across in a restaurant who claims to have bought it new . . . would you buy it if the price were fair? I'd venture a guess to say that most of us here would! I would buy that, and mount a yellow inner ring after You've obviously made up your mind, move on please. Well . . . . . there is a difference between asking for advice from a group of serious collectors and refusing to accept that advice unless you have 100% incontrovertible proof in the form of a catalogue photo. Put it this way . . . . if I stumbled across one of these, came to the forum and asked for advice and got an answer like Adrian has provided I would probably accept it, buy the watch and leave it at that. JM$0.02! Asking for advice and not stopping at appearances is a sign of intelligence. Adding this comment is definitely not a sign of intelligence at all, please refrain from adding anything more to this "discussion". If you don't want to take expert advice, that's your prerogative, but it is now time for you to move on from this topic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 8:14:00 GMT -8
I didn't mean to imply you're a dealer of sorts or would be intentionally deceiving. So apologies if it came across that way, it wasn't my intention. What I simply meant was, why would that be a necessary change to do considering that you 'could' - and with quite a substantial amount of evidence to suggest that you 'would' - be changing the originality of the watch to something absolutely not original to itself. It's ok, your tone was peaceful, mine was too I'm just the kind of guy that looks for sure proofs, studying law it's probably something I acquired over time, I would change the chapter ring because I'm sure that's an official release, this is the only reason. That said, I would keep the black ring, because it is a genuine part! My opinion is that the opener acquired a beautiful seiko 6139, and leaving the discussion aside, the black ring does not influence its genuinity, as long it is a genuine spare part. What I feel like saying to Besurfer is: enjoy your watch, and don't feel discouraged by this discussion!
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small
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Post by small on Jul 25, 2017 8:59:04 GMT -8
My 2 cents has varying value. On this subject it might not be worth much.
I've read through this thread and the "old" post from the other forum, as well as the links provide, and find it useful; conflicting but useful. I'd say that from a evidence based perspective, asking the experts, to provided evidence that they have come across to become the 'experts", and that might have more than just "anecdotal evidence". Possibly that is what was being asked for in the beginning? Not "I knew this guy, who dated a girl, whose uncle once lived next store to..." or "I called a watch maker friend..." etc etc. After no physical evidence was provided they then can either take what they have been told and accept it or not... Its possible short of "proof" some people won't be convinced. There have been many times when I have read you can't say "always" about a Seiko watch regardless of what has been seen commonly for years. An odd ball pops up that becomes accepted as legitimate down the road. Its possible that in the absence of physical evidence and 30 years passing by, that memories fade, or get clearer.
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pip
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Post by pip on Jul 25, 2017 13:39:54 GMT -8
And it's just as possible that someone will stumble across some evidence that proves the case for the people saying "yes." The trouble is, you can't prove a negative so there's no way of the people saying "no" to prove their case. Me? I'm happy to accept the evidence of people more experienced than I am. It's the difference in the UK between Civil Court and Criminal Crown Court. If the Crown is prosecuting you, it must prove the case "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt," which is just that, there must be no doubt at all int eh mind of a reasonable person. If it is a civil case, it must be proved "In the Balance of Probabilities" which basically means a 51% or more chance, or to put it another way one case is just more probable than the other.
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Adrian-VTA
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 25, 2017 16:28:50 GMT -8
We keep repeating this to the peanuts here. First hand accounts from SEIKO service agents and dealers and a first hand account from someone that purchased one of these BECAUSE of the black ring. The reptilian aliens control the US govt too right? I just posted an image of my 6117 in another thread. Doesn't appear in any catalog and only really turns up in oceania. So it's a fake parts bin 6117 right? The 6117 "Aussi" And it's just as possible that someone will stumble across some evidence that proves the case for the people saying "yes." The trouble is, you can't prove a negative so there's no way of the people saying "no" to prove their case. Me? I'm happy to accept the evidence of people more experienced than I am. It's the difference in the UK between Civil Court and Criminal Crown Court. If the Crown is prosecuting you, it must prove the case "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt," which is just that, there must be no doubt at all int eh mind of a reasonable person. If it is a civil case, it must be proved "In the Balance of Probabilities" which basically means a 51% or more chance, or to put it another way one case is just more probable than the other.
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Post by bombora on Jul 25, 2017 18:59:08 GMT -8
"All of Alma Cogan is dead, but only some of the class of dead people are Alma Cogan."
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tritto
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Post by tritto on Jul 25, 2017 19:49:55 GMT -8
At the risk of opening up debate again, I visited my watch guy today. As I said, he worked in a Seiko service centre for many years and has been running his own business since they closed down the Sydney service centre. He confirmed that the yellow dialled ones came with both the yellow bezel and the black bezel. He pulled out a customer's one that had all the hallmarks described by Hal0eight above with the black bezel. It was missing the crown/stem assembly and a pusher. I mentioned Adrian's repro gears but he said the customer didn't want to spend any money on parts. It will basically sit in his drawer until the parts turn up on a donated watch (like many watchmakers he has a "were always after parts watches" sign out). Beautiful hands, dial and chapter ring. I reckon I could gather what it needs. Perhaps I should ask him to offer the owner some cash for it when next he turns up.
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Post by Groundhog66 on Jul 25, 2017 20:05:11 GMT -8
At the risk of opening up debate again, I visited my watch guy today. As I said, he worked in a Seiko service centre for many years and has been running his own business since they closed down the Sydney service centre. He confirmed that the yellow dialled ones came with both the yellow bezel and the black bezel. He pulled out a customer's one that had all the hallmarks described by Hal0eight above with the black bezel. It was missing the crown/stem assembly and a pusher. I mentioned Adrian's repro gears but he said the customer didn't want to spend any money on parts. It will basically sit in his drawer until the parts turn up on a donated watch (like many watchmakers he has a "were always after parts watches" sign out). Beautiful hands, dial and chapter ring. I reckon I could gather what it needs. Perhaps I should ask him to offer the owner some cash for it when next he turns up. Heck yes, buy it...or Wrist Sushi will. 😁
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Adrian-VTA
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Post by Adrian-VTA on Jul 25, 2017 20:28:51 GMT -8
Do it. Stefan has the metal gear/stem assembly right now which is a better deal than my plastic gears. At the risk of opening up debate again, I visited my watch guy today. As I said, he worked in a Seiko service centre for many years and has been running his own business since they closed down the Sydney service centre. He confirmed that the yellow dialled ones came with both the yellow bezel and the black bezel. He pulled out a customer's one that had all the hallmarks described by Hal0eight above with the black bezel. It was missing the crown/stem assembly and a pusher. I mentioned Adrian's repro gears but he said the customer didn't want to spend any money on parts. It will basically sit in his drawer until the parts turn up on a donated watch (like many watchmakers he has a "were always after parts watches" sign out). Beautiful hands, dial and chapter ring. I reckon I could gather what it needs. Perhaps I should ask him to offer the owner some cash for it when next he turns up.
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tritto
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Post by tritto on Jul 25, 2017 20:53:45 GMT -8
Curious, Stefan lists the setup as being compatible with a variety of models (inc 6139 6020, 600x) but sure I've previously been told the gear on the 600x and the 6020 are not the same (also the case with the 6119 6020/3?). Jules Borel, to which Stefan links, shows the same stem for each model, but doesn't seem to have the gear listed. I actually have four of the different models: 6139 600x 6139 6020 6119 6023 6106 7107 So I guess I could pull the stem on each and compare them.
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Rod
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Post by Rod on Jul 25, 2017 21:34:10 GMT -8
I find it highly amusing that people have joined "Wrist Sushi" just to ague this topic Changing a watch to suit your beliefs is fine....untill you destroy a rare version. On TOF a member (a few years back) relumed and replaced the bezel insert on a perfectly nice 62MAS that he was convinced was a hatchet job, only to discover later it was a Dani brown lume version.
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Post by SeikoPsycho on Jul 26, 2017 2:34:57 GMT -8
I find it highly amusing that people have joined "Wrist Sushi" just to ague this topic Changing a watch to suit your beliefs is fine....untill you destroy a rare version. On TOF a member (a few years back) relumed and replaced the bezel insert on a perfectly nice 62MAS that he was convinced was a hatchet job, only to discover later it was a Dani brown lume version. Maybe Poseidon Jim is Trolling again..........
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